If you believe you can lose your salvation, please take time to illustrate how a person can lose their salvation by making it applicable to the believer today.

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Sharon Theresa Theil on February 14, 2011 at 6:20pm

LT,

Awesome!  Awesome!  Awesome LT!  Just what we need to sort through our own thinking on this very complex topic and, even more importantly, to really understand each other.  Outstanding!  I'm going to get the kids to bed and then tackle this topic.  I want to give you a well thought out, as opposed to rushed, response. 

 

Love you!  You are outstanding!  What a leader!  What a light in the darkness! 

 

{{{{{{big Jesus loves you and so do I hug}}}}}

 

Sharon.

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on February 15, 2011 at 8:22pm

A false teacher can lead people down a path that does not glorify God. Often times the glory is given or taken by the false teacher. This deviation will cause people to not continue in the growth process. Sanctification is a process, and thus we are either shrinking back, stalled or growing.

 

Our goal is to be completely surrendered to Christ, but if we are led astray that is not happening.

 

Lord Bless,

LT

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on February 16, 2011 at 5:41am

Amanda and Norma,

 

Complete surrender is what we aspire to. This is giving complete control of our life to God. All of our decisions are based on God's Word and guided by God's Spirit. It is part of the progressive stage of sanctification. We aspire to be able to truly say in all things "Not my will, but Your will be done."

 

It starts with surrendering to Jesus afresh every morning and taking up your cross. As we walk with the Spirit in the Spirit guided by His Word this path becomes more natural over time, because of the work He is doing in us.

 

Here is an illustration that is better done as a visual, but I will explain it and you can try it at home if you want the visual effect.

 

Part One: We are like a jar without Jesus. The jar is empty (except for air) and pretty useless. Think of Jesus as a tea bag (give me some liberty in this illustration). When you get saved Jesus comes into your life (insert the tea bag into the jar representing your life). The tea bag is there and yet there is still something missing. Though the bag represents Jesus in our heart there isn't a whole lot of change taking place in the jar (our life). We need to be filled with the Holy Spirit (Some believe this happens at salvation and some believe it is an second act of grace). Fill the jar with water representing the Holy Spirit filling us. Now step back and watch what happens. From the tea bag (representing Jesus in your heart) the bag begins to permeate throughout the water. This represents the slow, but steady change that God brings to the life of a person who has been filled and surrendered. The longer you wait the stronger the tea becomes representing spiritual strength and maturity.

 

Part Two: We were made to pour our lives out and as we do we need a fresh filling from God. Pour out half the water in the jar (representing you giving yourself to others and Christ’s service). Fill the jar again with water. The liquid intermixes really quick, but you will notice that the tea looks weaker. This represents that each of us need time to recover and be refreshed. We cannot just pour ourselves out, we would run dry. We cannot just be refilled and take off, we need recovery time, time in the word, prayer and fellowship.

 

So, what does surrender truly mean? Give self over to God. When self is given over to God, then we tend to live for Christ in a manner that glorifies Him. I will add that many try to become holy by works. Righteous works are to flow from a person who has been changed, surrendered and filled. Externals do not make you holy. Holiness does nto flow from the outside in, but from the inside out.

 

This is a general overview of the idea.

 

Lord Bless,

LT

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Permalink Reply by Carla on February 16, 2011 at 8:05am

LT, I love this illustration of the tea bag..  I'm a tea toddler so it makes perfect sense to me. :-)

if you don't mind I'm going to hijack it and use it..  :-)

Blessings and thank you for all you do here in this community.

~Carla

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on February 16, 2011 at 8:16am

Hmmm, let me think .... hmmm, OK. You can use it. If you get any royalties off of it, I will give you my address ... hahaha.

 

Thanks for the kind words :-)

 

Lord Bless,

LT

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Permalink Reply by Carla on February 16, 2011 at 8:23am

hahha..  yeah.  you bet..  i'll let you know. :-)

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on February 16, 2011 at 1:08pm

Amanda,

 

There is a positional sanctification (holiness) that is ours in Christ through His work at Calvary. Our sins are imputed to Him at the cross and His holiness and righteousness are imputed into us. This is part of the born-again experience. There is also experiential sanctification (holiness). This is a life that lives in accordance to the will of God. This is made possible by the power and presence of the Holy Spirit as we surrender more and more to the Father's will day-by-day.

 

Spiritually you are holy as Christ is holy, because it actually is His holiness that you possess as He possesses you. Physically you are subduing the flesh that you may walk in holiness as well as be holy.

 

Lord Bless,
LT

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on February 16, 2011 at 1:10pm

I will start another forum on Sanctification.

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Permalink Reply by CESAR HUSMILLO on February 27, 2011 at 7:43pm

Wow, this (tea bag) is an awesome concept. This really makes sense. I think for most of us Christians, the hardest part to do is completely surrender ourselves to Him.

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on March 4, 2011 at 5:09pm

Amanda,

 

In this context there is one Biblical truth that overrides all other concepts or ideas. God is sovereign. That never changes. God created the universe, all that is seen and unseen. This includes man. God has created man in His image, but we are not God. We are subject to Him and are under His total authority at all times. Freewill is not a good choice of terms for what man possess under God’s sovereignty. We have liberties. Sovereign God has chosen by His freewill (of which is the only true freewill to exist) to give man the ability to make decisions. At the same time God holds the right to supersede or override our choices. We are not robots, but have limited choices available to us even in our liberties. These choices are choices that God has given us. Adam and Eve were given a tree. They were told to not eat of it, but were given the liberty to do so, but by doing so they would incur the penalty associated with it. Because there is a penalty, the will was not free, but was given a set of choices to select from. Today man does not choose God. He chooses man. The Bible is clear that man does not search for God, but that God reveals Himself to man, leads them down the path of conviction and repentance and then there comes a decision time. Some believe that God causes the decision while others say we make the choice. I believe that the Bible teaches us that we are brought to the point of surrender. I do not choose God, but surrender to the almighty because He chose me. Life in Christ is full of choices, but each choice has either benefit, ramifications or a combination of both. Thus, we are not free to do as we wish, but have been given liberty to select certain things in life. God, who is sovereign, has the right to override our decision at any moment. The only thing that binds God is His own Word. He will never break His Word.

 

All of this can appear to be double talk. The reason is that man wants a definitive answer. Is it freewill or predestination? It appears confusing because we see God’s sovereignty and our God given liberties operative every day. It is not an either or, but both.

 

Man does his best to understand and to define God who is far beyond our understanding and definitions. If we could truly figure Him out I present to you that He would not be God. Part of the awe of God is the mystery of God.

 

Last thought: Many people get the idea that if it were all predestined (scripted) we would simply be robots. A sovereign God could create man in such a way that He fulfills God’s plan while appearing to operate with freewill. Man would not have to look robotic in nature or action.

 

Lord Bless,
LT

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on March 4, 2011 at 5:28pm

A sovereign God can give man liberties and still accomplish His ultimate goal. These two coexist. This is beyond our ability to understand.

 

Lord Bless,
LT

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on March 4, 2011 at 6:05pm

And then we see the other side as well. That is called the Father's heart. The Father lets His children make selections, but is ever watching and carefulling protecting. When we teach our children to ride a bicycle we know that they are going to fall, but that is part of learning to ride the bike. We don't learn it for them, nor do we keep them from learning because it has risk involved. No we educate and encourage.

 

A sovereign God who operates with a Father's heart can give His children liberties, the ability to make choices.

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