"I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy"

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on August 27, 2013 at 6:08am

David,

 

I will give as short as possible and specific responses to specific topics within your post., mostly in the areas where I see it differently in Scripture.

 

1) Salvations is all of and from God: This in an absolute truth. Man does not go looking for God, because man is spiritually dead apart from Christ. We will get into that a little more in a moment. Salvation, all that is required for the lost sinner to be justified, redeemed, regenerated, sanctified and glorified is all a work of God. Jesus, in His work has paid the price opened the door and offered the gift. To receive or reject the gift does not negate the sovereignty of God, because in His sovereignty He has given man the liberty to accept or reject the gift once they have been enlightened regarding their sin, Jesus, and are need for Him, etc. To say that man has this liberty does not make it part God and part man, because all that is required for salvation has been performed by God and given to man as a gift, but it is a gift that must be received for it to become in effect to that individual. When we recognize that the gift itself is all of God we have nothing to be arrogant about. I cannot boast because I received a gift, it is a gift I do not deserve, cannot earn. I can only bow and humbly receive the gift with a heart of love and gratitude that is overwhelmed by the great love, mercy and grace poured out by our Lord. To receive the gift does not make it any of me, but only surrendering (yielding) to the Lord and King.

 

The Bible says:

Eph 2:8-9 NIV84  For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- (9)  not by works, so that no one can boast.

 

Joh 1:12 NIV84  Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God--

 

Here the Bible makes two important points. Salvation is a gift that is to be received in order for it to be of effect to the individual.

 

2) God’s special love for the elect: Jesus called Judas to be one of the twelve even though He knew Judas would one day betray Him, though the effect of that betrayal would not be felt until the actual betrayal had taken place. Jesus sent Judas out as part of the two-by-two and part of the seventy two He was sent out to teach and perform miracles. None of the other eleven would have picked Judas as the betrayer. He walked, talked and operated as a disciple of Jesus. God’s love for the saved (elect) as seen through His foreknowledge is understandable when we realize that to God, who exists outside of time (for He is the Creator of time), does see the beginning from the end. He does know with certainty who will receive Him and who will reject Him, as well as who will never hear the gospel and have opportunity to be saved. This knowledge does not change the fact that the person at some point in time must receive Jesus as Savior. This knowledge does not mean that the person had no choice in the matter, but rather that God knew the person would receive Jesus, but this cannot happen until the work of God has brought the person face-to-face with their sin, Jesus and their need for Him, as well as the offer of salvation extended to them. This is all part of the repentance process.

 

The Bible tell us that some will see the truth (changed mind in that they now know the truth) and yet they prefer their sin, darkness, over Jesus, light.

 

Joh 1:1-14 NIV84  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  (2)  He was with God in the beginning.  (3)  Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.  (4)  In him was life, and that life was the light of men.  (5)  The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.  (6)  There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John.  (7)  He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe.  (8)  He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.  (9)  The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.  (10)  He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.  (11)  He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.  (12)  Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-- (13)  children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.  (14)  The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

 

Joh 3:14-21 NIV84  Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, (15)  that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. (16)  "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (17)  For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. (18)  Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. (19)  This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. (20)  Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. (21)  But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

 

Joh 12:35-36 NIV84  Then Jesus told them, "You are going to have the light just a little while longer. Walk while you have the light, before darkness overtakes you. The man who walks in the dark does not know where he is going. (36)  Put your trust in the light while you have it, so that you may become sons of light." When he had finished speaking, Jesus left and hid himself from them.

2Co 4:6 NIV84  For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

 

People are called or used of God to fulfill His purpose: The Bible differentiates between certain things. There is a difference between God calling (using) someone to fulfill a purpose and God calling someone to salvation. These two coexist. God used Pharaoh. God used the nations around Israel to punish Israel. God used Egypt to provide gold and other fine articles to Israel when they left Egypt. God never relinquishes His sovereign power. He has the right to interject and override our liberties at any time.

 

The Gospel: The gospel is what God has chosen to use to reveal Himself as Savior of lost man to lost man. He has revealed Himself in creation, but that knowledge does not and cannot save us. It is through the gospel message that the truth of God is shared regarding salvation. I believe that the Holy Spirit is at work in every gospel presentation pricking the heart and mind of the hearer. Without the gospel message salvation is impossible, but through the gospel message the Holy Spirit opens the mind and eyes of the hearer to the truth. They are given the liberty to reject, and thus choose their sin over God or to receive the gift that has been provided for all who call on the name of the Lord. The Bible says several important things in the Book of Romans.

 

Rom 1:15-17 NIV84  That is why I am so eager to preach the gospel also to you who are at Rome.  (16)  I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.  (17)  For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."

 

Rom 10:9-13 NIV84  That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.  (10)  For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.  (11)  As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."  (12)  For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,  (13)  for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

 

Rom 10:14-17 NIV84  How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?  (15)  And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"  (16)  But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?"  (17)  Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

 

Salvation is all of God. He has provided all that is needed for salvation and offers it as a gift. Man, in the liberty that God has given him, once confronted with the gospel has the liberty to choose light (Jesus) or darkness (remain lost).  Praise be to God that this offer is not a one and done, but that there is hope as long as there is breath in the body.

 

Let’s go back to Romans 10:17 for a moment and wrap up my initial comments:

 

Rom 10:17 NIV84  Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

 

This verse clearly states that “faith” comes from hearing the message. The term here in context is meaning to know that the gospel message is true. The same Greek word for faith is used in James 2:19 where the demons “believe” and yet shudder. So what is the faith good for, this knowledge that it is true? That takes us back to Romans 10:9 and Romans 10:13. To believe one must be presented the gospel, to be saved one must receive Jesus, call on His name. (Side note for clarity: Some might point to John 3:16 to say it is only believe, but John 3:16 must be read in context of the surrounding verses. What does those verses say about the “believe” in 3:16? John 3:21 tells us that this “believe” leads to one living by the truth, those are the ones who come into the light. The rest choose darkness and do not live by the truth, but rather choose their sin instead.).

 

 

Summary: (When you have to use a summary you know the post is too long …. Hahaha)
Salvation is all of God. In His sovereign will He has given man the liberty once confronted with the gospel to either receive or reject the offer of salvation, Jesus Christ.

 

(Note: David, my response above was to your original post from last night that you changed while I was writing this and thus my comments my appear at some points to be speaking to things not mentioned in the current post above. Changing your post is not a problem, I just needed to clarify my comments.)

Lord Bless,

LT

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Permalink Reply by Amanda on August 27, 2013 at 9:30am

LT,


You said:
"The Bible tell us that some will see the truth (changed mind in that they now know the truth) and yet they prefer their sin, darkness, over Jesus, light."

In Romans 1 it says men are without excuse just from knowing God in the things that have been made. It says they suppress the truth. I understand what suppress means. It takes a lot of effort to suppress memories and feelings but here it is speaking of suppressing the truth about God. 

I agree with your post. I just had one point that needed clarifying. There can be no doubt that people are able to choose darkness over light. Are you speaking of a more indepth truth that changes some minds -- more than just knowing God exists and knowing his eternal power and divine nature? The reason I ask is because I've seen people turn away from accepting Christ, conviction and pain clearly on their faces, because they don't want to give up a habit or are just living with someone but not wanting to marry, etc ... They definitely are making a choice. How risky is it to keep turning Jesus away?

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse" (ESV).

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on August 27, 2013 at 12:10pm

Amanda,

 

To be without an excuse simply means we are guilty and have no excuse to cover that guilt. To be without excuse dos not mean that the person knows how to be saved, but only that He is guilty of rejecting God in this case.

 

Note that Romans 1 is speaking past tense to that which has already occurred. The past affects the present, but Paul is talking about the failure of mankind. It can be illustrated at least 3 times in history where mankind had direct revelation from God and failed. Adam and Eve fell and man drifted from God pretty quickly. The flood reset the stage and again mankind drifted from God. God called out Israel and their history is marred with repeated failures. Verse 32 is important in understanding all that precedes it in chapter 1.  The people he is speaking of did not learn God's righteous decree from creation, but from what God gave to mankind in direct communication (i.e. His interaction with Adam. Noah and Moses).

 

To your direct question. Yes. There are those who are in darkness, dead spiritually. There are those who have been enlightened, but choose sin over God and remain dead spiritually. Then there are those who are enlightened and choose God over self ... though the battle with self seeking to die daily to self will be ongoing to some degree.

Lord Bless,
LT

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Permalink Reply by Amanda on August 27, 2013 at 2:00pm

It's just that if people reject the revelation that has been given through creation and Adam, Noah, Moses, etc. then it stands to reason that for such people that the Gospel of Christ wouldn't be accepted either, and it makes sense that this is why many die everyday without hearing the message of faith.

It's helping me make peace with knowing that many die never hearing the message preached or knowing how to be saved. They may even die unaware of Moses and the prophets. But creation still speaks. Also, there are many accounts where missionaries went into places to preach Christ crucified only to find that the people already had knowledge of Jesus. Angels may preach it, too. I'm not sure how accurate or verifiable those accounts are though of angels appearing and preaching and of visions and dreams revealing Jesus, too.

Luke 16:31 ESV
English Standard Version
He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.'"

Please note, I'm not referring to people who have at one time or another believed and then backslid and may lack assurance of salvation or eternal security. I'm speaking of people who don't believe and haven't ever believed to the saving of their soul. I believe people can choose darkness but only after receiving light. I just also believe that the revelation of God through creation is light as well and if rejected, then that could be it for some people. It doesn't mean God isn't merciful to them and I agree it does mean they have no excuse to cover their guilt. It's just something I think about. It helps me have peace with some of this stuff.

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on August 27, 2013 at 4:28pm

Amanda,

 

I understand what you are saying. We can agree that creation displays God and thus is a form of light relating to God, but is insufficient to lead or bring someone to salvation. God's plan is and has been the gospel message, which is about Jesus.

 

I disagree on a technical point. Let me explain. I recognize that God has used dreams and visions to prepare the way for the coming of the gospel. I believe He has used angels to prepare the way for the coming of the gospel. Both the visions/dreams and angel intervention only go so far. God's design is for the gospel message to be brought to the lost (Romans 10). From Scripture we can see two important accounts. In the account of Cornelius we know that the angel told him to send for Peter who will show you the way. Saul on the road to Damascus was confronted with Jesus, but Saul was not ignorant regarding the gospel. He was there when Stephen was stoned as well as sought to persecute the church ... which implies he had some idea as to what they taught in order for him to be so angry like many other Pharisees. Thus, I do not believe there is Scripture evidence or worldly evidence that anyone comes to Jesus for salvation without the simple gospel being presented first as Romans 10:9-17, Romans 1:16 and Acts 4:12 give us a clear picture that the gospel must play a part according to the will of God.

 

God is mercy (Eph. 2:4) and grace (Eph. 2:7). These are two of His attributes. God is also holy (Rev. 4:8) and just (Dr. 32:4). All of His attributes are in operation all of the time because it is who He is and not just what He does. A lot of people have trouble with how God can send someone to hell that has never heard the gospel. We are born lost with sinful natures and spiritually dead. Those who do hear and receive are born again and become alive in Christ. All others, those who hear and reject and those who do not ever hear the gospel remain in the state in which they were born into. For me, rather than wondering how God could allow the spiritually dead to remain dead I am amazed that He saves anyone ... especially me, and that by coming and dying for our (my) sin.

 

Lord Bless,

LT

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Permalink Reply by Amanda on August 27, 2013 at 5:10pm

I'm not saying creation is enough to cause people to be saved. I'm saying it is revelation from God testifying about God's eternal power and divine nature and if rejected, then why would those who reject that much light about God believe the message of faith about Christ? The gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. Jesus is someone who rose from the dead and not just someone but the Son of God.
Luke 16:31 ESV
English Standard Version
He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.'"

What I'm trying to say is that this helps me make peace with the ones who die never hearing the message of faith. I have peace with it because I understand that they have received light from God to a certain extent, and this doesn't mean we stop preaching the gospel. We have no way of knowing who will receive Jesus. We have been given the Great Commission, and there are those who do believe in the Creator and even believe the bible is the Word of God and do hear Moses and the Prophets but haven't yet received Christ as Savior. My point is that everyone has received light from God to a certain degree and it varies individually and if, at any point, the light is rejected, then more light isn't going to convince the person. IMO, of course.

Additionally, everyone has a moral sense of right and wrong and a conscience, even atheists. Hearts appear to harden more and more and although the lost are all equally lost, some appear to get deeper and deeper into darkness. I've heard it explained that sin leads to more and more sin. I'm speaking only of the lost. Those who are born again are not perfectly sinless but when they sin, they hate their sin, and they long to be completely free of it. The lost don't seem to have this kind of battle with sin.

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on August 27, 2013 at 7:34pm

I'm saying it is revelation from God testifying about God's eternal power and divine nature and if rejected, then why would those who reject that much light about God believe the message of faith about Christ?

Many have looked at creation and ascribed godhood to the creation itself. We know people have worshipped the sun and the moon. Thus, they did not reject the light, but perverted it, at least as far as it shines on them. Some of these people when confronted with the gospel empowered by the Holy Spirit have come to know Jesus the Creator. We also know that some who demonstrate no real belief in a god or god(s) when confronted with the gospel empowered by the Holy Spirit come to Christ. Is a belief in a god or gods a prerequisite to being saved (Not asking you, just speaking). I think not. Even in the idea regarding believing Moses and the prophets we find that they really do not believe (not talking about intellectual ascent, but rather spiritual conviction) Moses and the prophets if they reject Jesus when confronted with the gospel message. One will not believe in the true Jesus if they reject Moses and the prophets. For the Word tells us that the Scriptures testify about Him. To one of Roy's points in another discussion, to deny the Scripture is to deny Christ. Now, that does not mean that they have to know all that Moses and the prophets said before they can be saved, but if they believe in the true Jesus they will believe Moses and the prophets, for this real belief is Holy Spirit enabled to begin with and is not a man thing to be worked up.

 

What I'm trying to say is that this helps me make peace with the ones who die never hearing the message of faith. ... My point is that everyone has received light from God to a certain degree and it varies individually and if, at any point, the light is rejected, then more light isn't going to convince the person.

The gospel message that brings salvation is not about more light or less light ... it is light, Jesus is light. I do not see it as more light leading someone to Christ, but the true light being revealed. Those who have heard the gospel are given the liberty to receive or reject Jesus, to embrace the light or to embrace their sin, to be saved or remain lost. In order for the spiritually dead to see the light they must have a work performed on them (us) by the Holy Spirit. The blind do not see and the deaf do not hear. It is when their eyes and ears are opened that they recognize the truth, because God has revealed it to them.

 

Lord Bless,

LT

 

 

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Permalink Reply by Amanda on August 27, 2013 at 8:38pm

Yes, many reject the Creator and worship creation and creatures instead. They reject that light and pervert it. Look at Buddhism and Shintoism. We should still take the gospel to these people by all means but many died today without knowing the gospel or Jesus.

I'm saying in making peace with the topic of this discussion, I have been able to see that all have received the same revelation from God and those revelations include creation, Jesus, and the Word of God. If some never hear of Jesus or of the bible, creation alone speaks of God as existing at least.

People reject light. They love darkness more. However, once illuminated people appear to have a choice. The way I make peace with God having mercy on whom He will have mercy is through understanding that mankind is able to choose darkness after being illuminated by whatever light they are seeing. Yes, to see light the eyes have to be opened by God. I agree with all of what you have stated and with Roy's point. Rejecting light has eternal consequences.

All I wanted to say was that I find peace in knowing that all have received at least some light and therefore I'm at peace even though there are those who passed into eternity today never hearing the gospel. I'm sorry I wasn't able to say it more clearly. Maybe no one else needs to make peace with this issue and maybe I misunderstood what and why Charles was asking. I was sharing what I see in scripture. I'm only an awakened sleeper.

Ephesians 5 ESV

8 for at one time you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light
9 (for the fruit of light is found in all that is good and right and true),
10 and try to discern what is pleasing to the Lord.
11 Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.
12 For it is shameful even to speak of the things that they do in secret.
13 But when anything is exposed by the light, it becomes visible,
14 for anything that becomes visible is light. Therefore it says,

“Awake, O sleeper,
and arise from the dead,
and Christ will shine on you.”

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on August 27, 2013 at 7:42pm

Good read. Can't argue with Scripture :-) Thanks for sharing it.

 

Lord Bless,

LT

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on August 27, 2013 at 6:51am

David,

In your understanding of Scripture do you believe that there are people born today that are unable to be saved, even if they hear the gospel, because God has marked them for condemnation before the foundation of the earth? Another way of saying it "Are they born without hope destined to hell no matter what, because God did not elect them before they were born?"

 

Lord Bless,

LT

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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on August 27, 2013 at 9:41pm

LT,

>>In your understanding of Scripture do you believe that there are people born today that are unable to be saved, even if they hear the gospel, because God has marked them for condemnation before the foundation of the earth?

 

I believe what scripture teaches haha, that indeed there are those who are unable to be saved, but not because God has marked them for condemnation before the foundation of the earth, but because they are dead in transgressions.

 

>>Another way of saying it "Are they born without hope destined to hell no matter what, because God did not elect them before they were born?"

 

 

According to scripture Christ died for his church, his sheep, his people, so in that sense, yes the atonement is limited to the Church, but not limited in power. In other words, if any man was to come to Christ the atonement would cover them, but none come to Christ to be saved, no, not one.

 

Blessings

 

I partially responded to your previous post on the last page of this discussion.

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Permalink Reply by ribbon on August 27, 2013 at 9:59pm

but none come to Christ to be saved, no, not one.

 

Everything yall been talking about is WAY over my head... but Im reading it anyway. The above words in bold.... What does that mean? I know it reads simple enough.... but I don't have a clue as its meaning. Dpes this mean that all my repenting is useless? I think yall have been saying no one comes to God uness he wants you too. Are there people who will repent and think they want God and people who really want God but instead God says no way? Like the scripture that says God will tell mant that He doesn't know them to depart from Him?  It is mentioned that He said they said but God we did this ant that. It seems theses people who He says deprt I knew you not... really believe they are born again and chosen. What a shocker it will be. I know that some will say well you aint saved by works. But wasn't that fruits? Why would someone live for god and not kow they are not saved. How can they know or NOT know that God is or isn't showing mercy?

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