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I do not permit a woman to teach
1 Timothy 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner 15 But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.
1 Corinthians 7:8 Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do. 9 But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion. 10 To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband.
This topic has been discussed before, and I've often seen people bring up 1 Corinthians 7 as being Paul pointing out he was saying this, not God, but that in 1 Timothy 2, he doesn't qualify it as his words so it must be God's words.
As this verse came to mind, the very first word seemed to jump out in my mind...
I!
If Paul were speaking for God, wouldn't he have said, the Holy Spirit has shown me that..., or God has revealed to me that....? Those who have long been against women teaching or leading use 1 Timothy 2 as the standard. And while led by God, many in scripture also were speaking as men. It is an account of Jesus, His disciples, prophecy, creation, etc. By those who were there. When we feel led by the Spirit to write (aka - what I'm doing right now), we write about what we witness and believe. So why would we think Paul didn't also write things as he felt and believed? In places, he said God told him something or the Spirit led him, so why do we assume those things when he does not say that?
I believe this verse is exactly as stated:
I (Paul - me, myself, I...alone) do not permit a woman to teach.
After all, Paul was living in a time where women were considered lesser creatures.
Also interesting to note: Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. In this he is correct...Eve was the one who was deceived. Being the one who was personally told not to eat of the tree though, Adam WILLFULLY disobeyed and did what Eve did or told him. All we know is she gave it to him.
Another thought regarding 1 Corinthians 7. Paul said he would prefer all remain unmarried. But what did God say?
Genesis 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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Speaking only to whether it is Paul's words apart from it being God's words and therefore imply that it is less than God's word and merely an opinion instead of Godly instruction.
We have 66 books of the Bible. The men that the Holy Spirit used to write the Bible are wholly trustworthy and we believe that every word is inspired by the Holy Spirit. If Paul, one of the men used to author the book, records in what we recognize as the Bible we are compelled to believe it as God's Word for 2 Timothy 3:15 says that all is God breathed. To lessen the words of any who God used to author the Bible sets us on the slippery slope of picking and choosing what we want to believe as God and the other is only man's opinion or culturally relevant at a specific time. As I have stated before the culture card can only be employed in clear cases where it is revealed that it was a culture issue only and not an eternal teaching. Thus, we have to decide whether we accept the Word of God as God's Word in totality or is it a mix bag of human and God's words, or as many today will proclaim ... merely man's word. To me it is all God's Word to us.
Some will, and have in the past (in other places), point out that at times Satan spoke or Job's friends spoke, etc. There is a great difference. Two points make a huge difference. 1) The words recorded that were spoken by Satan and Job's friends were recorded by the men God selected to record the Bible, but were not spoken by the men selected to record the Bible. They recorded the words of another ... Paul is speaking and He is one selected to record various books of the Bible. 2) The context of what is being said makes a difference. You clearly understand that Job's friends ad Satan are wrong from the whole of Scripture and as revealed in the context. Jesus did not write one book of the Bible, yet His words are recorded. Who recorded them? Those selected by the Holy Spirit. What was the context of the current passages in which those words are found and how do they align with the whole of Scripture?
Because I trust that the Holy Spirit saw to it that only what God wanted recorded is recorded and by whom He wanted it record I have to trust that whatever Paul said in Scripture is God's Word to us through Paul.
Some will argue that Paul messed up when He and Barnabas disagreed over john Mark. Two problems arise there. 1) We have to prove that Paul was wrong (I personally think he was, but that is my opinion). 2) Paul did not record this, Luke did. Paul and the other authors are merely men, yet chosen of God. They were not perfect, but were being perfected. They made mistakes in life ... but when we come to Scripture we understand that they were not acting on their own, but under the specific guidance of the Holy Spirit and constrained by Him ... this would even include the remark that is under discussion in this forum.
I finish with repeating that there are those who take a different view ... I get that. There are those who think it is only man's word, other who think it is a mixture and then there are those who think it is God's Word given by the Holy Spirit though men. I am fully in the last camp.
Lord Bless,
LT
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Permalink Reply by RoyW on
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I agree. I see no way to make it a cultural thing. I see no way to lesson its significance to the church today. I do not think it prohibits women from exercising their God-given gifts in the church. I personally have a wife that forces me to be the man of the house. That never stops her from giving me her opinions which she does constantly. She is one of those Proverbs 31 women. What a blessing it is to have a wife that believes in Scripture!
Is it just old-fashioned to believe these verses apply to us today? As Amanda has said, experiences don't prove something right or wrong. However, my life experiences strengthen my belief that the verses still pertain to today.
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Roy,
We want to be Biblical Christians, meaning learning from the Word of God and then applying that teaching to our lives. One of the problems today, IMO, has to do with the lines being blurred. What does the Bible say is the order in the home? What are the responsibilities of the husband, wife and child? How are they supposed to interact and respect each other? The same is true of the church. What is the responsibility of men and woman in the church? How are the various offices supposed to be employed, what are their responsibilities? What are their qualifications? Regarding qualifications, would God put something into His eternal Word as a qualification knowing that His Word will be read for 2000+ years and not clearly mark something as for only a short period because it is cultural?
At the root of this, again IN MY OPINION (not speaking at you Roy, but so that others understand it is only my opinion as to one of the roots to the problem, but viewed by me as a major root), is that people have been duped to believe that unless a person has the freedom to do certain things that they are viewed as a lesser person. Society attacks on a regular basis the structure of the Biblical home as if a Biblical wife is a lesser being than her husband and they view this structure as demeaning to women. That same attack has been brought against the church as if when we stand on these verses we are some how making women lesser beings ... Most do not want to accept that we all have a role to play and that there are certain criteria given. Some of these criteria do involve gender, but that does not make one greater and one less ... for we are all part of the body of Christ and equally important to Him.
Lastly we often hear a person proclaim they are called of God to do???. The first and most important question that should be asked is "How does this calling that you feel align with the Word of God?" The second question is what did the early church teach and believe, including the apostles and the next generation or two? In this instance we have nearly 2000 years of church activity to view. Did God allow the church to be in error for almost 2000 years to only enlighten it today, especially when this "enlightenment" did not originate in the church, but through the women's liberation movement that has bled into the church?
We could discuss the few examples of Scripture and look at their unique circumstances and how each played out, but will save that for another discussion.
Roy, we are not being viewed as old fashion (not meaning by those on AAG, but maybe by some ... not meaning any one particular here for clarity). It is much worse. People like you and me are being labeled by society at large and by many in the church as "irrelevant." I really don't care about being relevant when the relevance means in step with society. I have one concern ... am I in step with Jesus, the Holy Spirit and the Word of God. If I can say yes to that the rest is out of my control.
Lord Bless,
LT
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LT, you said:
"...would God put something into His eternal Word as a qualification knowing that His Word will be read for 2000+ years and not clearly mark something as for only a short period because it is cultural?"
My sentiment, exactly. If we believe in God's sovereignty, this is not even a question. Blessed be our God.
Blessings.
Roy
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Permalink Reply by Amanda on
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The argument is given that we use the bible to prove the bible and therefore we are guilty of the Homunculus fallacy where we actually are explaining nothing. However, the canon of Scripture contains 66 books and has several different authors and the books were not all written at once. Why can't we use one author to verify what another author has said, such as using Matthew to verify John? We use other historical works to verify what one historian has said against what another has said, such as in American history. If we take all the authors who wrote accounts that happened in American history and put their books all in one book and called it the 66 books of American History, would that make us no longer able to use those authors in comparison one to another in order to verify what each of them has written about American history?
Here's a good link: http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2013/09/you-cant-use-the-bibl...
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The argument is given that we use the bible to prove the bible and therefore we are guilty of the Homunculus fallacy where we actually are explaining nothing.
I do not care what allegations they levy against us or what human argument they employ. The Word of God stands alone and is unique. We are not talking about simply human authors or history. We are talking about the Word of God that is God breathed. One either accepts that it is God's Word or they do not. I cannot, nor will I try and prove it is God's Word. That is the responsibility of the Holy Spirit. The human intellect can only go so far regarding spiritually discerned truth. I will simply attempt to illuminate what the Word of God says and illustrate its trustworthiness down through the years.
Thus, (not meaning to anger you) I do not play the human argument game ... this Book is divinely authored and Divinely illuminated or it is only a work of man. If it is only the work of man we can file it away as fallible. If it is fallible then it is untrustworthy. If it is untrustworthy then my salvation is suspect, for where else do I find the truth of God revealing my great need and His answer to solve my great need?
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At the link I posted, it explains why it's not a good argument, and we can use the whole of Scripture to interpret Scripture. I agree that intellect only goes so far and illumination from Holy Spirit is what helps us discern real truth. Yet, sometimes the intellect is where it begins. Then the light comes on, so to speak, while discussing things.
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I will read what is posted here, but I don't usually read the links ... sometimes :-)
Yes, God uses the intellect, but it must always go beyond the intellect.
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