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I do not permit a woman to teach
1 Timothy 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner 15 But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.
1 Corinthians 7:8 Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do. 9 But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion. 10 To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband.
This topic has been discussed before, and I've often seen people bring up 1 Corinthians 7 as being Paul pointing out he was saying this, not God, but that in 1 Timothy 2, he doesn't qualify it as his words so it must be God's words.
As this verse came to mind, the very first word seemed to jump out in my mind...
I!
If Paul were speaking for God, wouldn't he have said, the Holy Spirit has shown me that..., or God has revealed to me that....? Those who have long been against women teaching or leading use 1 Timothy 2 as the standard. And while led by God, many in scripture also were speaking as men. It is an account of Jesus, His disciples, prophecy, creation, etc. By those who were there. When we feel led by the Spirit to write (aka - what I'm doing right now), we write about what we witness and believe. So why would we think Paul didn't also write things as he felt and believed? In places, he said God told him something or the Spirit led him, so why do we assume those things when he does not say that?
I believe this verse is exactly as stated:
I (Paul - me, myself, I...alone) do not permit a woman to teach.
After all, Paul was living in a time where women were considered lesser creatures.
Also interesting to note: Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. In this he is correct...Eve was the one who was deceived. Being the one who was personally told not to eat of the tree though, Adam WILLFULLY disobeyed and did what Eve did or told him. All we know is she gave it to him.
Another thought regarding 1 Corinthians 7. Paul said he would prefer all remain unmarried. But what did God say?
Genesis 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Seek on
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Another with an addition: "Letyour women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 35And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." 1 Corinthians 14
The woman with no husband falls under "if they will learn". So then "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." 1 Timothy 2:4 would be literal? That God wants all "men" to come to the knowledge of truth and not women?
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Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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Char,
I get your post and that is not meant to deal with the topic of women leading in the church, but I think you would enjoy John's message about the topic.
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Actually I disagreed with quite a few of his points. He uses generalizations that don't fit.
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Permalink Reply by RoyW on
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David,
I did not listen to the entire message from our good Calvinist friend, John. I do have an idea where he is going. I am wondering about a couple of things. Did Paul (Scripture) give direction to women how to pray and prophesy publicly in the church? If so, wouldn't that seem counter productive to these words here? Is a woman not to speak in the church? Note:
1 Cor 11:3-10
3 Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. 5 And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head — it is just as though her head were shaved. 6 If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head. 7 A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. 8 For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9 neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10 For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head.
1 Cor 11:11-16
11 In the Lord, however, woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. 12 For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God. 13 Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14 Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, 15 but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering. 16 If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice — nor do the churches of God. 84NIV
The context of these verses appears to be speaking about public meetings. I think Paul (Scripture) is requiring women to be in submission. Scripture does not allow the woman to be in authority but to be in submission. I don't think the directive is total silence in the meeting. But, I could be wrong. There are certainly times the women should be silent. Men seem to be able to shut it off more easily than women. I am speaking now of my own personal experience. I sometimes seem to be able to shut it off when my wife cannot. (Boy, I hope she doesn't read this or I am in big trouble.)
Where would we be without women? We wouldn't even be here. Yet, in the church, I believe God has placed certain restrictions on the women. Are there exceptions such as Deborah? It appears that God did bless that situation. Perhaps Priscilla is another example as she taught Apollos. My mother-in-law went only to places to pastor when enough men could not be found.
Do we believe in women missionaries? I like this article from Got Questions:
Question: "What does the Bible have to say about women missionaries?"
Answer:First Timothy 2:11-12declares, “A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.” This clearly precludeswomen from serving as teaching pastors over men. But how does it impact women serving as missionaries and/or evangelists? Does it mean women should not be involved in any sort of evangelism and/or missionary work towards men?
It is very important to note that the Bible nowhere restricts women from sharing the gospel. The exhortation to evangelize is directed towards all followers of Jesus Christ (Matthew 28:18-20;Acts 1:8;1 Peter 3:15). The restriction in1 Timothy 2:11-12is in regards to church-shepherding (teaching and exercising authority) roles over men. It does not apply to evangelism. No woman should ever feel biblically restricted from sharing the gospel with a man.
Further, the Bible describes women serving in many roles that are crucial in missionary work. Women are encouraged to teach other women (Titus 2:3-5). Women are to be dedicated to prayer (1 Corinthians 11:5), exercising the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23) and the gifts of the Spirit (1 Corinthians 12). The vast majority of missionary work is undeniably open to women. The question arises, though, as to whether there is any missionary role in which women should not serve.
If at all possible, women missionaries should not serve as pastors/shepherds over men. In an instance where there is no man willing or able to take leadership, perhaps then a “Deborah principle” applies. InJudges 4-5, Deborah encouraged Barak to take leadership of Israel’s armies, but he was unwilling. Therefore, Deborah took the leadership role. If on a mission field, there is no qualified man to shepherd new believers, it does not seem God would desire those new believers to remain undiscipled until a man arrives. But a woman serving a shepherding role in an instance like this should do everything she can to quickly build and develop male leadership to take over the shepherding of the men in the church.
Remember, though, that this would be an extremely rare exception. Further, it is not explicitly biblical, but rather speculative. In no sense would this exception, even if it was definitively biblical, disprove the clear message of 1 Timothy 2:11-12.
Read more:http://www.gotquestions.org/women-missionaries.html#ixzz3XYkn0qcsI don't like to paste other works but do you believe this is anti-Scripture?
Finally, we are all called to submit to Scripture and that is what we must do.
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1 Cor 11:11-16 is another good example. Some churches believe it's a sin for a woman to cut her hair because of this. Some don't believe that's what it means. Can anyone explain why?
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Is it okay for women to cut their hair? Wow! Now, we are really getting into some very important stuff. I think you should have long hair until you get older. Then it is okay to cut some of it off. lol
Actually, these are not things that are said to make us all legalistic. We all must seek to follow God and learn His ways. He wants peace in the assembly and not disruption. He wants the assembly to be a place people can come and find Him and learn of His ways. He does not want to give us a set of rules to follow but does want to give us direction. He knows better than we know. In the long run, we will find that He was right all along.
I am convinced that He wants our relationship with Him to be one based on love and not rules. Yet, in all public situations, to promote harmony, we need direction.
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Roy,
"The context of these verses appears to be speaking about public meetings. I think Paul (Scripture) is requiring women to be in submission. Scripture does not allow the woman to be in authority but to be in submission. I don't think the directive is total silence in the meeting. But, I could be wrong."
The directive is definitely not total silence since scripture admonishes women to teach other women and children. That is more than enough work and a huge privilege to be given.God has equipped women for such a task. to menntor younger women and to raise up Godly children, huge task.
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Char,
OK let's rumble a little than missy and tell me what the problem is :)
Much love to you sis.
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The problem with the video or with what I was asking? The video has several and what I was asking just turned into a runaway train wreck that I don't really want to even try it again.
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Got nothing but love for you Char, even when you are a trouble maker, hahaha Train Wrecks, not good sis. :) haha
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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Seek,
Does the Bible really say women are to never get a hair cut?
Verse 6 is the answer to your question.
1Co 11:6 KJV For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.
What does shorn mean in the original language? Is it talking about cutting the hair as in a hair cut or???
STRONGS: G2751 Κείρω - keirō - ki'-ro: A primary verb; to shear: - shear (-er).
Note: Verse 5 is relevant to the context.
Does the Bible really say women are never to speak in church?
What is the context of the passage in which we find this command? The passage addresses the orderly employment of spiritual gifts, primarily focusing on tongues and prophecy, within the assembly. More specifically the comment is placed within the portion dealing with when the Lord is speaking through a person bringing a word of prophecy. The verse tells us that the women are not to inquire of those who are giving words of prophecy in church, but are to ask their husbands later. So, does this say that women are to “never” speak in church, or rather that in the service there is an order that is expected by God. We could discuss why it is told to women to ask their husbands about the word of prophecy later, but that is not central to the real question most, including you, are asking. They want to take one verse and make it omniapplicable to all things and in so doing have to first remove it from the context in which it is found that defines the teaching.
What does the Bible say about a woman without a husband?
It is obvious that a rule applied to a wife cannot be strictly applied to a women who has no husband. Yet, there are principles that can be drawn from such a teaching when there is absence of another clear teaching on the same subject. Who would operate as the head of the woman within the church in the absence of a husband? Would her father, if still alive, fit the bill? Can the pastor or elders operate in such a place?
Does the Bible really say that God wants all "men" to come to the knowledge of truth and not women?
Does the absence of the Word mentioning women in that statement really mean that God has no concern for women? Or in the context is Paul giving a specific teaching to his young student Timothy? The end of chapter 1 brings the context into view. Does Peter not say, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, that God is “not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance”? Key words being anyone and everyone which includes women. So, again you cannot pull one verse out of context and try to build a case for or against.
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
What is the context surrounding this verse? The context goes all the way through chapter 4 and into chapter 5 which states: Gal 5:1-6 NIV84 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. (2) Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. (3) Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. (4) You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. (5) But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope. (6) For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. … Gal 5:24-26 NIV84 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. (25) Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. (26) Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
There is only one salvation and one Savior. We are seen as His children and treated as His children, for we are “in” Christ. Gal 3:27 NIV84 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
Final thought:
It is amazing to me how often today we find groups of people ignoring context and attempting to insert a culture card to determine the meaning of Scripture. This has been done so long by various groups that many now believe the culture card view, or single verse as a standalone doctrine, over the interpretation constrained and revealed by the context.
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