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How Do the Two Testaments (Old and New) Work Together?
People have varying views regarding how the Old Testament and the New Testament relate to each other. Some view the New as simply a carrying on of the Old after Christ died and rose again. Some view the New as a New Covenant that completely replaces the Old. There are many views in-between. These varied views, along with some other approaches to Scripture, cause many of the differences and divisions that we see in the church today.
This can be a hot topic, but one that also can be beneficial. My question is this:
How do the Old Testament and New Testament relate to each other according to Scripture from your perspective?
Lord Bless,
LT
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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When we think of the Law we need to have a right understaing regarding the various covenants that God has made. Some of the major covenants are the Abrahamic, Mosaic, Palistinian, Davidic and New Covenant. Most of the laws are given under the Mosaic Covenant and were specifically directed at Israel as a nation. These laws were given to govern and guide them. There are many principles that we can take from the Mosaic Covenant, but we are not under the law as outlined in Romans, Galatians and Hebrews. The Apsotles had their chance to put the burden of the law on the Gentiles, but did not. In fact, we see recorded in Acts 15 that only four things were given to the Gentiles who had come to faith.
This also requires us having a clear understanding that Israel and the church are two separate entities and when looking at Scripture we need to identify who God is speaking to at the particular moment. This is extremely important when studying prophecy.
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Permalink Reply by Amanda on
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Most of the laws are given under the Mosaic Covenant and were specifically directed at Israel as a nation
This is where I get confused but not about the laws of sacrifices and feasts and holy days and so forth but about the ten commandments. Did Christ replace them with a new commandment? Isn't there evidence in the NT that the early church were keeping 9 of those commandments but not the 7th day sabbath? Have the ten commandments been abolished by the sacrifice of Jesus?
What I really struggle with understanding is, if it was sin in the OT to break the ten commandments, has the definition of sin now changed, so that failure to keep the ten commandments is no longer sin? Or is it simply that Jesus kept them, died and rose again, and we are justified through Him, so when we break the ten commandments, sin is not imputed against us?
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Think about this. The question is not whether the commandments present truth regarding these various items, but to whom was the commandmment specifically given and to whom does it really apply? Keep in mind that with the law came punishment for failure. The law and the punishment, or condition, were inseperable.
If we choose to apply the Law we have to accept the whole law and its conditions and results. If we say we are bound by the Ten Commandments we have to also accept all the other precepts. Thus, an adulterer must be put to death ... yet we see how Jesus dealt with the woman who was caught in adultery in John 8. Keep in mind that the penalty for adultery was death, not death unless you repent.
Lord Bless,
LT
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The way Jesus dealt with the woman was something He did before the law was fulfilled through Him. He showed her mercy and King David was also shown mercy for his sins of adultery and murder, which required the death penalty. So we see that under the law, God showed people mercy. In fact we see that God showed much mercy and longsuffereing with Israel throughout the OT. I am thinking specifically of when the Book of the Law somehow "disappeared" and they were not keeping it and had forgotten all about it (see 2 Chronicles 34).
Sin is the transgression of the law. Is sin no longer sin? The ones who are not born again, are they not under the law? The ones who are born again are under grace because Jesus kept the law for them but also paid the penalty of breaking it for them.
This is where I have misunderstanding. All through the NT we are warned about sin and told not to sin and also told if we say we have no sin, we lie and the truth is not in us.
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.--1 John 1:8
Yet many say we have no sin once we are born again because all of our sins are washed away, past, present, and future. We are told to confess our sins. 1 John 1:9. This is not to get saved over and over again but to restore us to communion with God. He hates sin and wants us to hate our sin. The ten commandments define for us what God calls the right way to live and not living that way is sin.
When people sin, especially if it is a life style of sinning, we always then begin to question them about whether or not a true born again transformation has occurred. Yet, we know no one is with out sin or living a completely sanctified life. We have the righteousness of Christ but none of our own righteousness.
We have the teaching of eternal security but we also know that all true believers must endure to the end. Those whom God has accepted in Christ, and sanctified by His Spirit, will never fall away from the state of grace, but shall persevere to the end. Believers may fall into sin through temptation, grieve the Spirit, impair their relationship with Christ and suffer divine discipline on themselves. Yet they are kept by the power of God and are saved even if they die in their rebellion. They are the elect. God knows who they are. They are not those who fall away and are finally lost or those who were not really saved anyway.
Except--how can you know if they are the elect? Wouldn’t the rebellion be the same thing as one falling away? I guess the difference is that the one who falls away stops believing Christ is Savior and the one in rebellion still believes and experiences conviction but wants to go their own way, like the prodigal son. I don't know.
I do know that it is always brought up that a true transformation did NOT occur when a person is no longer following after Christ but has been hindered in their walk. As if it does mean they are undoing anything Christ has done in having saved them.
We do have these instructions:
2 Thessalonians 3:
1Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you:
2And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.
3But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil. 4And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you.
5And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ.
6Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
7For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;.......... 14And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
15Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.So should anyone be doubting any believer as being saved or not when we are called to warn every believer what is not of faith and what is not considered as abiding in Him? Don’t we have to help each other on this path?
Jesus gave many teachings before He died. Even the "new commandment." We are supposed to know His sayings and keep them. So the ten commandments--they are no longer His sayings?
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The Ten Commandments and the other 600+ precepts and instructions reveal sin. As a Law they came with punishment for breaking them. God, in His sovereignty has always had the power to forgive sin at His discretion, but that does not mean that one can be saved by another means than through Jesus.. The account of the man who was brought by His four friends demonstrates that as well as the John 8 and David’s account. All people are born under the curse of Adam due to the fall. The penalty due all mankind is only paid for through Jesus. This act alone justifies any man who comes to Him and is redeemed and saved. This act of redemption and adoption removes us from our separation from God, whether Jew or Gentile. We are not under law, because law has to do with penalty and the penalty for the believer has been laid on and paid by Jesus. We learn from the law the principles for holy living. The rules and regulations tell us what displeases and pleases God. Dos God hate murder and adultery today as much as He did when He gave Moses the tablets? Of course He does. Does He punish sin … absolutely. Sin will be punished in one of two places, but never in a third manner. God either punishes the human for their guilt before Him or He lays the punishment due them on His Son. He never partially punishes a man and partially punishes His Son for the same offenses. We also recognize that Jesus’ sacrifice is complete and efficacious. There is no further sacrifice required or acceptable. It is either done or we are totally lost.
How does the Law apply to Israel and to the Gentiles? Man did not need the Law to be lost, He needed the Law to recognize how lost He was. Though the Law was given to govern the nation of Israel we also recognize that the law not only reveals sin, but on the flip side it reveals what God views as holy. Thus, the principles found in the Law that relate to us today are not instructions about penalty for failure, but rather guidance toward holiness. Jesus fulfilled the Law. The ability to live lives that please God rest in Him and the Holy Spirit. We have a High Priest who sits at the right hand of the Father who intercedes for us. We also have the Holy Spirit living in us who intercedes for us (Rom. 8:26-27).
Thus, the principles of the Law still exist as it is truth, but there is no judgment against the child of God as the debt was paid in Christ and we find that Romans 8:1 tells us “Therefore there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.” Note that it does not say for those who walk perfectly or strive harder, but simply for those who are “in” Him.
Romans 2-5 and Galatians 3 are great reads regarding this.
One last thing. We cannot be saved and guilty at the same time. People need to learn the freedom that has been given through Jesus at the cost of His very life. He did not die and rise again so that we would walk in the yoke of bondage to the law, but rather walk in the freedom of the Spirit. Religion wants to ensnare people, Jesus died to free people.
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LT,
What is the difference between original sin and imputed sin? We enter the world with a fallen nature and are born with a sinful tendency because of original sin.
People are not cast into Hell because of Adam's sin but we sin because we are sinners because of Adam. We only have a sinful nature when we enter this world.
When we are born again, won't this original sin still manifest itself throughout our lives in our words, thoughts and actions? Those things that we do which violate God's moral commands are sin but are they from original sin or from imputed sin? We also sin individually. This gets confusing for many who are not familiar with doctrines.
Believers sin. After being born again we still sin. We are not supposed to feel condemnation but conviction because we are in Christ. Are our sins imputed to Christ now?
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We are born spiritually dead (though many disagree with the degree I mean this). This is part of the consequence of the fall of Adam. Then we personally sin and incur the guilt and that guilt brings judgment. The sentence is either pronounced on us or upon Christ.
When we are born-again we come alive spiritually and are part of His family. We now recognize His holiness and our guilt. We agree with God that we deserve eternal punishment and yet praise Him for His great love, grace and mercy. Too many today want what God has for them but deny that they really were that bad and that they really don't deserve to be separated from Him for eternity.
Though we are born-again, we are still out of our element (new element). Earth is no longer our home, but yet we are here in a fallen world surrounded by fallen people and buffeted by an enemy who hates us. The lure of the world and the enemy tempts our fallen flesh. We are in a multifront war the remainder of our days on earth. We fight our thoughts and flesh from within. We fight the lure of the world and of people we know that would lead us astray. We fight the ploys of the enemy who at one moment attacks with great zeal and the next whispers in our ears as if he were a long lost friend, yet his intent is always our harm.
If not but for the power and work of God we would have NO HOPE. We don;t realize how important that it is that we have the great advocate and High Priest at the right hand of the Father interceding for us. We also have the living God dwelling within us both to empower and to pray for us.
Then we have one more thing. We are only children, lambs among wolves. We are weak and this teaches us how much the more we need God and must depend on Him for everything. God desires nothing less than total surrender and He is patient in regards to accomplishing this in our lives.
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There are many Amish Mennonites in this area and I talk to them some and they give out free literature at a country store not far from my home. I was looking at their statement of faith and they say in it: we believe all men are guilty before God, need to repent, confess and forsake their sin, and believe and obey God's word (Acts 2:38; Romans 3:23; Romans 10:9).
There are some beliefs listed that I haven't seen very often:
- in nonconformity to the world (1 John 2:15)
- in nonresistance in all phases of life (Matthew 5:43-46)
- women are to wear a head covering (1 Cor 11:5)
- the use of radio and television are detrimental to true Christian living and must be avoided (Psalm 101:3; 1 Thessalonians 5:22)
- it is possible to experience the new birth and later fall away and be lost (2 Peter 2:20-22)
- men should lead in worship (1 Timothy 2:12)
The Christian life is a battlefield. There are so many teachings that it's easy to feel discouraged. I don't find too many people around here who do not think that you are a child of God as long as you remain faithful and do good works to maintain your walk with the Lord.
Why would God in His love permit so many people, who truly for whatever reason have been awakened enough spiritually to seek God, believe in a completely false teaching with errors about how to stay saved and be saved? They profess a belief in him and allowing people to persist in wrong beliefs could prevent their genuine salvation. It is against the nature of God (Romans 10:13), and his word ( 2 Timothy 3:16), and his attributes ( Holy, Righteous, Justice, Love, Mercy) to act in such a manner.
Also, since so many believe these things--that salvation can be lost and faith without works is dead--it does make a person wonder if those beliefs are really wrong.
The bible teaches us that Holiness is God's foremost attribute, doesn't it? (1 John 1:15).
God has Holiness, Righteousness and Justice, Love, Goodness, Grace, Benevolence, Mercy, and Patience. None of these attributes of God can exist without the other being present as well. I've heard you say that before and none can contradict the other. ( Hebrews 4:16, Ephesians 2:8, Matthew 5:45, Romans 9:22-23)We are told to be holy as He is holy. Is it something He will do in us or does He expect us to be doing something for ourselves?
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Amish are another organization with their own personal beliefs regarding Scripture. The question is two fold. 1) What are their core beliefs? 2) How do they try to apply their other doctrines to themselves and others? Romans 14 is a great study in liberty between people groups that have the main things correct and differ on other doctrine.
I have shared with the AAG family all the reasons I currently have for why I believe in eternal security. There isn't much more I can say. I believe it is Scriptural and true, others disagree. God gives them that freedom.
Holiness is not God's foremost attribute. There are 16 identifiable attributes of God in Scripture. All are coequal and always in operation. His justice is contrained by His love and His love constrained by His justice for example.
Our holiness is enabled by God and to be embraced by us and lived out in the Spirit.
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The Amish Mennonites here are very strict in their beliefs and although they do business with those outside of their faith (I shop at their country store) they only marry within their faith and they believe everyone else is lost. They believe their rules are God's way and the way to submit to the will of Jesus is through group norms rather than individualism--meaning each of them depends on community in order to live. Perhaps you've heard how they can raise a barn or build a home or harvest a crop in a day, etc...
It's really hard to know where they fit in with Christianity. Even among their own groups, they often separate over disagreements about various issues, some as minor as what color their buggies should be.
The way I understand their belief is that salvation is a gift from God but they look upon salvation as not a single moment of being born again, but as being experienced in everyday living. Perhaps they have only confused the meaning of justification versus sanctification. Yet, they believe you can fall away and be lost. If anyone leaves their group and begins to live like we do, according to modern life, then that person is lost and has fallen away.
What does this have to do with your topic of discussion? Well, it shows how another group has confused the OT and the NT, faith and grace, faith and works, and faith plus works to be saved and stay saved.
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