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God's Judgement on those who never heard the Gospel
There are many people over the centuries who never heard the Gospel.
What will God's judgement be on them? Also what of those in O.T. times
who were never reached by the Books of Moses and the Prophets?
Views: 301
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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Ron,
God does love the lost, but He does nto operate only in His love. His justice and righteousness are equal parts of Who He is. These must be met and have been met in the sacrifice at Calvary.
The premise that is often presented that it is unfair for people to be lost because they dod not hear the gospel. The problem with this premise is found in that they assume they are lost because they have not heard. NO! They are lost because of sin and deserve nothing but judgment. This is what you and I faced. The gospel bring sopportunity for one to be redeemed and saved from what man deserves.
Why God has chosen the church to be the beaer of the good news instead of worldwide proclamation by angels is a question that I do not have an answer for, except it is GOd's will and plan that is beyond our understanding.
Food for thought: No one is in hell that does not deserve to be there. On the other hand there are many in heaven who do not deserve to be there ... GRACE.
There is a doctrine that is fading in churches today and it is called "The Lostness of Man."
Man is pretty arrogant at times. We assume that we, unstated, are more merciful and gracious than God because we would not send people to hell for not having heard the gospel. The point again is that they are sent there, not because of not hearing, but because of sin.
Lord Bless,
LT
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Permalink Reply by Ron Payne on
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Hi Lindy Loo,
Naughty Hey!
Your stealing part of my my thunder!
Thank you and there is still more, so C'mon what is it?
Thank you for your blessings returned with interest.
Ron.
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Hi Lindy-Loo,
Thank you again for wise and excellent input.
My rules are that it is my job to raise the heat and the questions in order to get all on AAg involved and searching their Bibles for answers. I personally know just enough about the problem to know that the problem I have is only being partially answered.
I don't have all the truth, wish I did. I need members on AAg to get all of us straightened out on this subject.
Lotsa Love in Christ,
Your brother
Ron.
p.s I'm still waiting on my son.
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Linda Ruth,
Food for thought: The Athenians were pluralistic. They had altars for many different gods of many different nations. The altar to an unknown god was their way of covering the last base. If there was a god they didn't yet know of this stood as a testimony to their openness to include him.
Paul was an opportunistic person. He used this altar to explain the gospel to them. He used it as an open door. There is no reason to believe that this altar was set aside for the True God, but simply was one of many in their stable of gods.
Lord Bless,
LT
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Linda Ruth,
We have to start with the understandign that man has been lost since the fall of man. We are born into a sinful world as sinful beings. We need to be redeemed and born again. Knowldge of a God or the God is not enough.
Later in the same book that you quote from a clear principle comes forth:
RO 10:1 Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2 For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3 Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. 4 Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.
RO 10:5 Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." 6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, `Who will ascend into heaven?' " (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 "or `Who will descend into the deep?' " (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11 As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
RO 10:14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
RO 10:16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?" 17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.
Lord Bless,
LT
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Linda Ruth,
I agree with Romans 1 and 2. Man has been given evidence of a Creator, evidence of God and that He exists. The questions is not does man know that there is a God and is this knowledge in them as His creation, but rather what do they know regarding His plan of redemption.
I was going to write a long response, but will choose a short one instead. Yes, man can hunger after God, but they often have settled for man made gods and thus they go no further in their pursuit. We can say with certainty in the New Covenant that one must find Jesus in order to be saved. The O.T. is a little more complicated, but it still pointed towards God's act of redemption.
Lord Bless,
LT
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We are in agreement.
Some stop short and I recognize that some have no means of searching outside of their isolated area in the world. These groups are awaiting the gospel to reach them.
There have been many accounts in the past and even in this day of people receiving dreams and visions from God telling them of one who was coming to show them the way. One such account was in a remote mountainous region. The first missionary to reach the area was shocked at the fact that the whole tribe accepted Christ at His first presentation of the gospel. What he learned was that a village leader had been given a dream that revealed a pale man carrying a black object would show them the way. He was a white missionary carrying a black Bible. PTL!
Lord BLess,
LT
Lord Bless,
LT
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Hi guys,
To all that have participated in this subject.
I have read what has been submitted and in many cases re-read it. I have also spent much time asking God for wisdom on the subject.
Whether the following thoughts are enlightenment from God I do not know. I like to believe they are. I leave you to judge.
No one here on AAG has shown any problem with accepting the fact, that apart from 8 people, in Noah's day, the rest of the world and all it's inhabitants were destroyed.
WHY OUR INDIFFERENCE?
I believe it is because we accept God's word that tells us of their terrible sinfullness. Beastiality etc; God in his foreknowledge knew that despite the evidence they had of His existence, they would still remain in sin.
They were therefore without excuse, and would NEVER turn to God. Hence their destruction. We obviously have no problem with God’s judgement on this.
IS THE WORLD ANY DIFFERENT TODAY ?????
Consider Jesus as the Ark of today. Those who have acknowledged God's plan of salvation through Christ, will also escape from the wrath (Flood) to come.
The rest of today's world, just as it was in Noah's day, have far more evidence of God's love for them, have also chosen to reject God's invitation, namely Jesus the Ark of Salvation for mankind.
Again, God in His foreknowledge is fully aware that no matter what He has done, the world today, as did the world of yesterday, will continue to reject God, no matter what. Would you also agree that our God whom we know is merciful, knows who will and who will not accept the gospel, no matter how forceful or clearly He presents it. Note today's educated multitudes who belittle anyone who simply mentions salvation through Christ. Note today's uneducated who being aware that there is a God, turn to god's of their own making.
Knowing God as I do, I am certain that if only one member of the uneducated tribes would earnestly search for God, God would have a plan to reach out to him or her. (Even if it was just for that one person)
At the endtime of this period, should anyone have the ability to look back on this present world, they would also agree that God in His foreknowledge knew who would turn to Him and who would not. More important they were ALL given a freedom of choice
Mat 24:37 "When the Son of Man comes again, it will be exactly like the days Of Noah
WHO SAYS THAT HISTORY, DOES NOT REPEAT ITSELF?
God's anger is revealed from heaven against every ungodly and immoral thing people do as they try to suppress the truth by their immoral living.
What can be known about God is clear to them because he has made it clear to them.
From the creation of the world, God's invisible qualities, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly observed in what he made. As a result, people have no excuse. They knew God but did not praise and thank him for being God. Instead, their thoughts were pointless, and their misguided minds were plunged into darkness. While claiming to be wise, they became fools.
They exchanged the glory of the immortal God for statues that looked like mortal
humans, birds, animals, and snakes.
this reason God allowed their lusts to control them. As a result, they dishonor their
bodies by sexual perversion with each other. These people have exchanged God's
truth for a lie. So they have become ungodly and serve what is created rather than the
Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen! Romans 1:18-25 (God’s Word translation
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Permalink Reply by Rod Askew on
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Hi Ron,
I love your anology of Jesus as the ark of today. So simple yet so true.
What a wonderful way of explaining the means to our salvation to children.
Of course I am not saying that your reply is childish. LOL
Praise God that He has given us a saviour.
Thanks Ron.
In His love
Rod
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Hi Ron
you say "There are many people over the centuries who never heard the Gospel." sorry but i must disagree with you, lets look at what God did, he created man and women, he says in acts. he created all men from one man,God says that he wants no one to perish, God made only one way for man to be saved and that of course is the cross of Jesus, i did not seek God, altho we were created to have fellowship with him, but he sought after me, God is a bit more powerful than we often give him credit for, one might ask how many chances does a person get, answer, who knows, i sure don't, but God has ways far beyond us, i'll explain a few, i went to Albania as a missionary, the bulk of my time there was witnessing, to a group of hard core Muslims who would have liked to have ended, my life, while i was preparing to go, God told me, not to say i was a christian, but i was a follower of Jesus, it worked out really good, as the muslims said oh we follow Mohammed, you follow Jesus, now i was able to talk with them, you see the hatred on that side of the world, is nothing like i had ever seen, if i said i was a christian they would think i was a catholic from the crusades , and i was there to cut there heads off. now i painted a picture of the days of creation, with sins, the cross, names of God, etc. etc. i shared with this one fellow Javier, after a few times he took my picture, off of me, and started preaching to other muslims, that wouldn't talk to me, they were just staring thinking how they could do me in, at first i thought what on earth, but then i realized God was using him with people who wouldn't give me the time of day, he would argue with his friends, saying but he (referring to me ) says the bible says, over against the koran. or Mohammed vs Jesus, another incident, One christmas holidays when i was in bible collage God sent me and a friend to a remote island 20 minutes off of Vancouver Island B.C. in the ocean, the place my friend was from, we evangelized every day for a week, morning till night one person after another, it was incredible, but even more remarkable the word got to some people before we did, another time God sent a couple of friends to Tibet, to the mountains where there was a group of Buddhist monks, so starved for truth they listened and excepted bibles, another time i met a lady and her husband preparing to go to the mission field, she was Chinese, part of her testimony was she had gotten saved in Red China, in a dream 10 years before she recieved a bible, another time when i was in Albania one of these Muslim fellows opposed me on everything, he was literally my hardest opponent, one night about 11:30 P.M. my interrupter, ( as lot spoke english but a lot didn't ) and i were on our way home we sat at a totally different coffee shop for an espresso, along comes this fellow, with his wife, very unusual, i only met 2 wife's in 2 1/2 years. Muslims in closed countries keep then mostly hidden and covered, well they come to where we are sitting, he says can we join you, i am thinking o no! and with his wife here, but, i say yes, please join us, he says i don't want to talk anything muslim, i thought wow great, he said my wife has had 2 dreams, you are going to tell us what they mean, i prayed "Help !" she told me the dreams, all i could say was guys Jesus is showing who he is, it was incredible she had never seen a bible, Jesus appeared to her, now here in the western side of the world we don't put much stock into dreams, but on the other side of the world they do, o ya and from that time on, he never again argued with me, he just sat and listened, in the old testament Noah preached 120 years while building the ark, others would have taken his message and mockingly preached, saying something like this nut case says it's going to rain, and God is going to judge us,o ya he's a few bricks short of a load, ya come and see this nut case, he's building a boat in the desert, or take the case of Jonah after his 3 day trip in the belly of the wale he gets spit out onto the land of Ninava, the wale had enough of him, and can you imagine he is bleach white and stinks to the high heavens, when he says repent, the whole place does, in old testament times the word of God would have spread like wild fire through the word of mouth, and as paul says it doesn't matter weather they preach from true or false motives what matters is that Christ is preached, a common and true statement is there are no atheist in fox holes, also the very heavens declare the glory of God, God is Holy, Holy, Holy, perhaps representing, Father, Son, Holy Spirit, But God in his holiness cannot allow any sin into heaven, the wages of sin is death, 1 physical, 2 separation from God forever in hell,the lake of fire, so God being a righteous judge cannot allow a sinner into heaven unless the penalty for my sin is covered by Jesus blood and accepted by me, in other words i am born again, and God could never send some one to hell if they had not heard, because they could argue, and rightly so, how was i supposed to know ? no one told me, God prepared me before going to Albania by facing a guy with a gun and a knife put right in my gut, He gave me a peace that surpasses all understanding i knew if i died i was in heaven, when i went to Albania i knew i couldn't die unless God allowed it, thus i had no fear, the muslims had to see this, you see, that is, i would be willing to die for Jesus, not backing down ,they think it is a good thing to die for there religion and presume they will be rewarded, which of course is a lie. many unsaved witness the torturing or death of a believer, and some get saved, the church grows under persecution, primary example Paul, God is far greater than we can under stand, i hope this helps, your bro.. in Christ.
roy ruser
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Hi Roy,
Thank you for your testimony. It is wonderful the way God deals with People and the way He has used you.
I am afraid that my statement - "There are many people over the centuries who never heard the Gospel." - I believe is correct. In your reply you say you disagree with me.
There are some areas where the gospel has just penetrated for the first time and they for the first time are receiving the Good news of God's Salvation through Jesus Christ. But what of the tribe members who have died before the Good news reached the tribe?
I think of 3 or 4 Missionaries who went to a particular tribe and were murdered in cold blood. Yet through the persistence of other missionaries those tribe members who participated in murdering the missionaries, are alive and have become witnessing Christians today. But again, what of their tribe members who had died before those missionaries arrived and never had the opportunity of even knowing of the existence of God's Son Jesus?
Never the less I am certain in my own mind that God has all the answers to every problem and question that we have
and should we still be in the dark regarding this problem, there will be satisfactory answers.
Blessings to you and your family, friends and loved ones.
Ron
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