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God's Judgement on those who never heard the Gospel
There are many people over the centuries who never heard the Gospel.
What will God's judgement be on them? Also what of those in O.T. times
who were never reached by the Books of Moses and the Prophets?
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Ron Payne on
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Hi Margaret,
Thank you for your input.
One problem though and that could possibly create more problems.
1. "Unless a man is born again........." Is the first problem.
2. If what you say is true..... is it then possible that there are levels in heaven that could be attained by those who never heard the gospel, but were rewarded for their good behaviour and works?
Somehow I don't think so, because the New Birth appears to cancel every other way out.
3. So maybe there are levels of punishment instead?
What say you.....?
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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The Basic principle is simple. Man is not judged on whether he has heard the gospel. Man is judged because of sin and ignorance is not an excuse, if it applied. The gospel does not bring condemnation, but opportunity. The gospel offers the opportunity for one to be redeemed. If we take the stance that they are only guilty after hearing the gospel and if the reject it, then stop sending missionaries, close the Book. If they are saved in ignoarnce don't cause them to become lost by sharing the Word that they might reject. But, that is not the case. They are lost and need the gospel message in order to be redeemed.
The same principle applies to the O.T. as well.
Lord Bless,
LT
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Permalink Reply by Rod Askew on
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Hi LT,
I don't think it is as simple as the OT applies by way of the same principle as the NT.
Clearly Israel was God's chosen people in the OT and the pagan nations were an abomination before God in those times.
There must have been millions of people in OT times that understood that Israel had a God but these people never knew enough to seek that God.
Until Jesus chose Paul in the NT God didn't want to know about the gentiles or any of the pagan nations.
Therefore prior to Paul there must have been many nations that didn't have the opportunity to be saved and as God found them to be an abomination, clearly aren't saved.
I hope that makes sense.
Blessings
Rod
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Hi Rod,
Yep, Israel's biggest threat was that all the nations around them had
a god of their own. (Mainly Baal)
But then so did we, before we were saved.
So what makes us so special that God took us out of that
and what a price it cost Him to do it?
Why not just change our thought patterns or close down satan?
By the way that dismissal was ludicrous. I hope they never let him ref again.
But let's keep to the subject on hand.
Blessings to you both
Ron
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Hi Ron,
God Changing our thought patterns makes us mere puppets whereas God is looking for fellowship with those that volantarilly worship him.
He could quite easily have wiped the memory of Adam's fall away and restored Eden to perfection, however we are made in his image and He is clearly not a puppet.
Closing satan down does a similar thing in that it takes away the choice we have to worship Him or satan.
If there is only God then there is nothing to overcome.
We would not have needed Jesus for salvation because sin would have been abolished with satan.
What makes us special is that we through faith and faith alone accept and worship the one true God. One true love.
Amd I agree Harry's dismal was rubbish.
Blessings
Rod
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Hey Rod,
The principle I speak of is the redemption and God's redemption has always required blood. The Old Testament saints looked forward to the cross (are as far as the light they had been given would allow them) while we in the Post Cross era we look back. All apart from the redemptive work of Christ are lost, Jew or Gentile.
I agree that "prior to Paul there must have been many nations that didn't have the opportunity to be saved and ... clearly aren't." I would say that this is true today due to the gospel message not having reached all nations or people groups. At the same time, there were people who were not Jews that were brought into the family of Jews. One example is Ruth. God did not exclude the others as much as they rejected Him. Yes, the Jews were chosen, but God's plan and love is for all nations.
One other point. There are millions today that know there is a God, but knowledge that there is a God is not enough to be redeemed/saved. One must be born again.
Lord Bless,
LT
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Hi LT,
I don't question that one must be born again in order to be saved.
However, other than slaves it was rare in the OT for outsiders to be brought into the family of Jews. Ruth being 1 rare example. There are probably others if I put my mind to it.
Ron's thread is in regard to the millions of "other" nations, not necessarily sinners who knew nothing of the one true God, and accredited there surroundings to a mirade of gods.
Were they in sin for never having known the true God?
Are they all lost because they never knew of God?
Unfortunately scripture only touches on the beliefs of other nations and focuses on the jews.
Perhaps the other nations did know God and turned away after all we are all decendants of the same parents.
Blessings
Rod
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Hey Rod,
We are in basic agreement here :-)
There is quite a bit mentioned about what others believed and we see God bringing judgment on many nations because of their beliefs. Even God driving out the people who lived in the land promised to the Israelites was a two fold event. God was fulfilling His promie to Israel and used Israel to judge the nations for their sins.
You said: "Ron's thread is in regard to the millions of "other" nations, not necessarily sinners who knew nothing of the one true God, and accredited there surroundings to a mirade of gods." We are all sinners, whether we realize it or not, and all deserve death (separation from God). I come from the POV that all are lost and only a few are saved. Lost because of sin, but saved through the work of Christ and faith in Him.
If a person is only guilty after hearing the gospel and rejecting we need to stop sending missionaries and stop sharing the gospel.
A question: In God's economy, what does man deserve? In answering this question we must remove our emotions and simply rest on God's Word.
Think back to the day of Noah. How many were saved and how many persihed? God then looked again upon the world and saw Abram. Did everyone hear the message presented by Noah before the flood came? Not likely. Yet, all but 8 perished ... even those who had not heard Noah's message. God judged sin.
Lord Bless,
LT
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Hi LT / Ron
If we assume that the pagan past generations are not saved -
What of the unknowing young children from generations past.
Do you think that they will be lost also because of the sins of their fathers or will the unsinning children be saved due to their innocense?
Or will it be like the flood again when God destroyed everyone one except Noah's eight.
The saved being Noah's eight in modern generations.
Though God said that He would not destroy (flood) the entire people again.
Not a trick question just keen to learn.
In His love
Rod
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Hey Rod,
I will respond in two parts.
1) I do not believe anyone today is lost because of the sins of their fathers. We are held accountable for our sins. Sin entered into the world at the fall of man, but the lost stand before God answering for their personal sin.
2) Regarding children and the concept of the "age of accountability." I have to be honest in that I am not 100% sure. I have seen compelling reasons from both sides. My heart leans toward the "age of accountability," but I cannot accept a doctrine based on my heart. There are some who believe that all children will be raptured out, but I see no real evidence for this. One problem with the age of accountability is this, what is that age? Age 8, 12 or 66? What is the trigger that kicks in accountability? Is it the gospel message or a base understanding of right and wrong? How can they be accountable for something they have not heard ... back to the earlier question. We are not condemned for not hearing the gospel, we are condemned for sin. The gospel brings the opportunity to be redeemed.
So, are children saved? Are they innocent until a certain age ... I think so, but cannot preach it with certainty. I once defended it, but am now not as sure ...
If we apply the Noah event and understand that in the future their will be an event like in the days of Noah we recognize that all people died, except the eight, and that included children. The $100,000 question, did the children die physically, but were spared spiritually?
I know that is not much help, but it is the honest truth from my perspective on the Word and the issue I as continue to analyze it and struggle with it.
Lord Bless,
LT
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Hi LT,
Can you give more on your statement: "They are Lost and need the gospel, the same principal applies to the OT as well."
My question is: "Was not their, obedience to the Law, the salvation of O.T. Saints?"
Glad to have your input on this subject. Even my own thoughts and answers still leave me puzzled as to how Billions of people are sitting in Hell at this moment, not because they did not believe, but that they never heard or read the gospel.
Linda Ruth has a good explanation, but for me there must still be something more.
If I as a Christian love the lost, how much more does God? He through the Holy Spirit can exert such pressure on the heathen, yet this does not appear to be His plan.
C'mon Christians here on AAG, Help me!
Ron.
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The Law was never salvation. The N.T. reveals that it was given to reveal sin more clearly, thus giving man a clearer knowledge of His guilt and need for a Savior. God desires obedience, but fallen man is incapable of obeying God to the degree He requires. That degree is perfection. From the fall of man till now man requires redemption and to be born again. The O.T. was given saints were given certain amount of light, but that light has always pointed towards a redemption going back as far as Gen. 3:15.
Note that most of the promises given to Israel regarding obedience dealt with the promise to stay in the land, not eternal salvation/redemption.
I wil keep it short and simple and respond more as we go as needed.
Lord Bless,
LT
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