All About GOD - Growing Relationships with Jesus and Others
Genuine Faith against, the “losing your salvation” notion
I have never felt easy with the statement, “losing your salvation,” or “once saved always saved.” Both are statements are made by human pride. Many who say, “once saved always saved.” seem to act anyway they want. The words Genuine Faith are connected with genuine repentance. Genuine Faith is Led by The Spirit. I will share more with responses. So there is a question, how do any of you see these things? Yet, if you truly are saved, Fruit is produced.
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Permalink Reply by ribbon on
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I have read these scriptures that the Watchman posted. I read them years ago and I believe the way she does. Accept I no longer believe someone can lose salvation if they are " TRULY" born again. I also believe that some pastors and preachers when preaching make some folks believe that they are saying to go and sin and sin its ok. What does born again mean? Does being born again mean to stay the way you are? To me people have the faith in themselves and faith in the ones who teach them that continued sin is ok. Where is the faith in God ? Don't get mad at me yall. Its just that like scripture says... the road is wide ....only few will make it on the narrow road. Also I heard someone say that the bible mentions more about hell/destruction than of heaven. I hope I am not off topic. I am sorry if I am. Its just that I have met so many people who are so worldly and have no desire to change. Why is that?
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Roy you mentioned me being focused of folks sin..... Im assuming it is because I said this --------- > Its just that I have met so many people who are so worldly and have no desire to change. Why is that?
Since you brought up my focusing on others sin..... do you mind if you get time answering my above question? If you don't want to that is fine too. When I said people... I am talking about who are Christians. Why do they stay the same?
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Permalink Reply by Amanda on
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Jesus is our Redeemer. Those who are true believers have been changed through being born again, and they are still experiencing change, but it's only possible through Christ. We are given new hearts and new spirits but not fully matured hearts and spirits. This means the new heart and the new spirit are still experiencing ongoing change (growth) and this change will show up in a person’s words and behavior, but it is all an act of grace. Grace is at work in the hearts of God's children.
It begins with enlightenment, being able to see. The bible helps us see, and God also uses other people to help us, teachers, preachers, brothers and sisters. Grace is at work in someone's heart when they are able to see a change that needs to occur in them. When someone sees where they have been wrong, sees their sin (not just before new birth, but afterwards, too) then there is sorrow. This sorrow means grace is at work in their hearts. It is called conviction. They confess -- agree that they are responsible for their sin. This means they are submitting to the Holy Spirit's conviction. This is grace at work in the heart. It leads to repentance. Transformation happens. They obey the call to live in a different way. This is spiritual growth and it is God at work in His children.
Philippians 2
English Standard Version (ESV)
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
14 Do all things without grumbling or disputing, 15 that you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and twisted generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, 16 holding fast to the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I may be proud that I did not run in vain or labor in vain. 17 Even if I am to be poured out as a drink offering upon the sacrificial offering of your faith, I am glad and rejoice with you all. 18 Likewise you also should be glad and rejoice with me.
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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Watchman,
To start I have two basic comments for you:
1) If it were that simple there would be no debate.
2) You imply only those who believe like you are referring to the authority of God's Word.
I have one question for you:
According to Scripture, what happens when someone receives Jesus as Lord and Savior? Are they regenerated? Do they become part of the family of God? Are they a royal priesthood? Or is all there hope focused on the future if they are good enough to make it to the end?
I have one irritation with you:
I get tired of people trying to misrepresent us who believe in eternal security. Most of us do not believe that sin has no consequences. Most of us do not believe it is OK to live however one wants. That is just ridiculous!!! We believe that our salvation is IN HIM and HIM ALONE, and because of that relationship we are called to holy living.
The account in Matthew 7 reveals a group of people who thought they knew Jesus and were doing all these good works in His name ... yet His comment is not about their activity, but rather the fact that He never knew them.
We are saved by grace through faith and this salvation is maintained by grace through faith. We are not saved by grace initially and then asked to maintain it by works. You and I could not achieve it on our own to start with and we cannot maintain it by our deeds. Now, again Ephesians 2:8-10 is word perfect. The good works come after salvation and do not add to the salvation or keep the salvation.
There is a right way to live and a right reason to live that way ... we live for Him as a child of God because we "love" Him, whereas you love will always be tainted with the fear of what if I fail 10 or 15 years from now. That reminds me of Linus on Charlie Brown in the Great Pumpkin Patch ....
Last couple of questions to ponder personally and need not reply: Did you sin this past week in action or thought, was there sin of commission or omission in your life this past week, month, year? If we require good works to maintain our salvation can you tell a person how much is enough? Do you believe that your are holy, that your life reveals that you are holy? Do you believe that God will let you in to heaven based on Watchman's holiness or the holiness of His Son that is imputed into every child of God? If you sinned once how are you holy, and if you are not holy are you not disqualified for heaven?
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Permalink Reply by thewatchman on
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I simply believe that I will or will not be led into eternal salvation by my belief and love upon my Savior and LORD.
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Did you sin this past week in action or thought, was there sin of commission or omission in your life this past week, month, year? If we require good works to maintain our salvation can you tell a person how much is enough? Do you believe that your are holy, that your life reveals that you are holy? Do you believe that God will let you in to heaven based on Watchman's holiness or the holiness of His Son that is imputed into every child of God? If you sinned once how are you holy, and if you are not holy are you not disqualified for heaven?
How much is not enough? Why are we trying to mitigate the amount of sin we can produce rather than flush it out???? He asks certain things of us, are you denying that? If you abide in me I will abide in you. If you walk in the Spirit...If you love Me you will obey Me, etc.
I never once said that we obey God because we have to...I have always said that we obey God because we LOVE HIM. Someone please tell me where I have said otherwise and I will certainly repent and apologize to you. Although I will add that fear of the Lord is refreshing...He who can cast both body and soul into hell and man who can only cast the body, that is encouraging to me. I fear no man, none.
There is a plumb line, whether or not you follow it, is completely your choice.
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Why are we trying to mitigate the amount of sin we can produce rather than flush it out????
Once again you misread and misinterpret the questions and attempt to turn them inside out.
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My apologies for misinterpreting your questions LT. In the same token what I have written have been misinterpreted too. I am not talking about works of the flesh, I am talking about works of faith. This works of faith is with God, not without Him.
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But, in your view you require the works of faith to be (remain) saved, instead of doing works of faith because you are saved. Your salvation hinges on you doing these works of faith based on what you have shared in the forums. Correct me if this is not your view.
This is basically the only area I disagree with you from what has been shared (at least the best I can remember) and I have tried to articulate that difference on several occasions without success. What I have been trying to say is that we do these works because we are saved, because we know Him and love Him. If we fail the Holy Spirit convicts us and if we reject that conviction God will discipline us because we are His children. Sin has consequences, but our salvation does not rest on what we do, but on what Jesus has done once we come into covenantal relationship with Him.
Another way to put it is that works of faith are evidence of salvation, not a causation or additive or the mechanism by which we remain saved.
Note: I am not against you, but this is an important point. It is easy to go too far either way on this topic.
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Watchman,
You said: " I am not talking about works of the flesh, I am talking about works of faith. This works of faith is with God, not without Him."
I'm not against you either, and my heart goes out to you because I discern from your comments that you have no real assurance that you will inherit eternal life and are trusting in your works to get you there.
Do you understand the Jesus you need to trust?
You are defining your needs and depending on the Jesus who can meet the needs that you define. For instance, since you have said no one can know when they are actually saved until they are standing before the judge of eternal life, and since you believe no one can remain saved and sin, too, then you have defined your needs as including needing to keep yourself saved through not sinning, and you trust in the Jesus, who in your mind, will help you meet those needs as you've defined them (give you the power and strength to keep the commandments because all things are possible with God, etc ...)
However, Jesus has defined your true needs and He will meet them in ways you can not even imagine! As your Redeemer, He has completed the whole work of saving you! Think about how much Jesus loves you! Then you will be thankful for what He has done for you. He cleanses us, fills us, and changes us. The works then flow naturally from a heart that has been transformed and is still changing by growing spiritually. A fruit tree doesn't produce fruit in order to continue being a fruit tree!
You get so defensive when someone points out sin and asks you if you sin. Our walks are not completely sanctified yet. Positionally, in Christ, we are regenerated, justified, sanctified, and are awaiting being glorified, but our experience in our walk is progressive because there is a war between the spirit and the flesh. The flesh wins some of those battles at times and we give into temptation. Do you have this battle? Are you humble enough to admit that you sometimes sin? I think many people are convinced that their walks are more sanctified than they actually are. :'(
It's a battle. Our identity isn't rooted in self and what we do or don't do. Our identity is rooted in Christ. You see, I tried to remain saved for many years. Now, I think God doesn't even call the works done to stay saved as works of faith and not works of the flesh because you're missing seeing the love of Jesus for you and the mercy and forgiveness and pardon found in the cross of Christ, His work alone.
You're not being controlled by His love but by the motive and the hope to one day receive the reward of eternal life. At least, that was my experience.
14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; 15 and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised (2 Cor 5, ESV). -
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