Genuine Faith against, the “losing your salvation” notion

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Permalink Reply by RoyW on January 22, 2014 at 3:03am

Hi Chris,

Another couple of terms to add to these would be "eternally saved" or "temporarily saved." Is it possible that once you have genuinely been adopted into God's family, that He would actually remove us from His family? Early in my life with God, I believed my salvation was up to me. I believed I had to live up to certain expectations or standards in order to be saved or bound for heaven. I grew up in a Pentecostal church where the pastor preached hell hot and the road to heaven for only a very few. I never understood how much God really loved me. 

My faith, at the time, had me believing that I would never enter heaven. I was convinced that hell was my destination. I didn't want to go there but knew that I was never going to be good enough to enter heaven. I was very, very miserable. I had a recurring nightmare that the rapture would take place and I would be left behind. Those around me went, but I did not. I had that nightmare many times with the same people in the dream and always the same result. I started to rise from the ground but soon fell back. I would wake as a young man from the dream and kneel beside my bed and promise God that I would do anything for Him if He would just take me to heaven.

I ended up going on to Bible school, married, had three beautiful children and began a life of service to God. Yet, I continued to have the dream and remained convinced that I would never be good enough to make heaven. I became so miserable that I found myself weeping uncontrollably. I knew God wanted to speak to me but I had no idea what He wanted to say. I allowed my wife and children leave to visit her folks for a season while I went on an extended fast. I was in the Charismatic movement at the time and I thought God was going to anoint me for this great ministry. (I'm not the first with that idea.) 

Anyway, to make a very long story short, God did speak to me during that fast. He spoke to me through His Word. I began the fast reading His Word from beginning to end. As I read my heart was drawn to Romans and Galatians. I read those two books over and over. I knew there was something there for me but could not grasp it. My problem was that I was looking for something that would make me stick out in the church world. I wanted this great ministry.

What I got was a revelation of God's love. It eventually dawned on me what God was wanting to tell me. He was revealing to me through His wonderful Word that He loved me, had adopted me for His very own, and would never, ever let me go. I knew I belonged in His family forever. When my wife (who had also grown up in a holiness, Pentecostal church) returned home from her extended visit with her family, thought I had lost my mind. The first thing I said to her was that I could do anything and never lose my salvation. I knew I was eternally saved. Her mother was a wonderful holiness preacher as well. She came to try to find out what had happened to me. She showed me in the Bible how easy it was for me to be lost. I told her I was never going to go there again. Eventually, my wife came to believe exactly like me as well as my entire family. God had given me a revelation of His love and I shared with all. My life was changed from that moment on. Shortly thereafter, I had the same dream again. This time, however, I did not fall back to the ground but was ascending very rapidly past the stars when I awoke. God spoke to my heart and let me know I was going when He came. That experience  will have been forty years ago this summer. I was twenty-seven at the time. I am still going strong in the knowledge of God's love. I have served Him faithfully since. I am the same person with the same weaknesses but I love Him more and more. 

I now understand that Jesus is my Savior and that He saved me from ALL my sin. My destination is heaven. That is where I belong and that is where I am headed. I no longer fear losing my salvation. I realize there is nothing that can separate me from God's love. I don't fear losing my faith or salvation. I know who I am in Christ. 

Blessings, brother.

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Permalink Reply by a servant (Chris) on January 22, 2014 at 6:37am

Roy

So very good to share with you again, my Brother.  I have also been in Romans and Galatians, and a few others as well.  I was asked a question about losing your Salvation.  As I look back over my now close to 40 yrs, I have seen where I have wondered, yet He has pulled me back.  

My hope here in this discussion is, to share about genuine faith, we Are Changed.  

So then, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; what is old has passed away—look, what is new has come! 2 Corinthians 5:17
He Saved us not by works of righteousness that we have done but on the basis of His Mercy, through the washing of the new birth and the renewing of The Holy Spirit, 6 Whom He poured out on us in full measure through Jesus Christ our Savior. 7 And so, since we have been Justified by His Grace, we become heirs with the confident expectation of eternal life.”Titus 3:5-7

But God demonstrates His Own Love for us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, because we have now been declared Righteous by His Blood, we will be saved through Him from God’s wrath. 10 For if while we were enemies we were Reconciled to God through the death of His Son, how much more, since we have been Reconciled, will we be saved by His Life?

Romans 8:32 Indeed, He who did not spare His Own Son, but gave Him up for us all—how will He not also, along with Him, freely give us all things? Romans 5:8-10

As we both know there are so many more verses, I hope more are shared.  However about your, " I thought God was going to anoint me for this great ministry."   Well, He has 

16 From now on, then, we do not know anyone in a purely human way. Even if we have known Christ in a purely human way, yet now we no longer know Him in this way. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a New Creation; old things have passed away, and look, New Things have come. 18 Everything is from God, who Reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the Ministry of Reconciliation:       2 Cor 5:18

And Roy I have read much of what you have shared, since I have been here.  You have and do operate in this, ministry of Reconciliation.  We both know, we will not know until we see The Father, just how much of a impact our Ministry has had on others.

Love to you and yours,  Brother

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Permalink Reply by a servant (Chris) on January 22, 2014 at 6:56am

Roy

I am Blessed to hear about, how He Healed your dream.  Yes, I long to meet you when that Day of Day comes.  And we are Called Home.

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Permalink Reply by thewatchman on January 22, 2014 at 7:28pm

Good Question and one that's been asked numerous times.  This is a "hot topic" of today's culture.  So rather than give you any interpretation I'd rather speak God's Word.

The Narrow Gate

(Luke 13:22-30)

13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

So Roy, maybe they were teaching you Biblical teachings?

A Tree and its Fruit

(Matthew 12:33-37; Luke 6:43-45)

15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

The House on the Rock

(Luke 6:46-49)

24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

The Authority of Jesus

28And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine: 29For he taught them asone having authority, and not as the scribes.

So yes, there are "few" that find it, i.e. the narrow gate.  Wide is the road to destruction.  This is Biblical.

The Lord also tells us in His Word:  "And ye shall be hated of all men for My Name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved" 
(Matthew 10:22).

Hebrews 12:14

King James Version (KJV)

14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

1 Cor. 6:

7The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated? 8Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers and sisters.9Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men^a 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

 

There is absolutely nothing in the Bible that tells me that if I continue in sin that I will be accepted into the Grace of the Lord.  

I cannot any longer live unto myself, I live unto the Lord.  That is the faith of Jesus that's spoken about in Revelation.  We are overcomers...what are we overcoming?  Sin...it is sin that God hates and despises, not something that Jesus was crucified to overlook.  

Matthew 13

1The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side. 2And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.

3And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow; 4And when he sowed, some seedsfell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up: 5Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth: 6And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away. 7And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them: 8But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold. 9Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

If no one who thought they had salvation ever could lose it, please listen to the words of Christ.

There is evidence and Scripture of those losing/giving away their salvation for other things.  Do we take so lightly Jesus Christ sacrifice?

We must always refer back to the Authority of God.  

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Permalink Reply by RoyW on January 23, 2014 at 3:21am

Watchman,

The problem with that kind of teaching is that it puts the responsibility of salvation upon the seeker rather than upon the Savior. Jesus said, "I have lost none of all that He gave me." (Jn 18:9) Jesus tells us in Jn 6:39 that He came to do the will of the Father and that the will of the Father is that He lose none of all that He has been given Him. Jesus came to give us life and all who turn to Him will be saved. He will save to the uttermost. His work is not lacking but is perfectly complete. 

When you or anyone attempts to put the responsibility of one's salvation upon the seeker, he puts that person or himself in an impossible situation as he will never be able to overcome all his sin. Even you remain in sin even though you may hate it with all that you are. 

Those who have been born again by the power of God will produce fruit but the production of fruit is not that which saves him. It is the work of Jesus in His life, death and resurrection that saves us from all our sin. 

I did grow up in the holiness movement (I continue to attend a holiness church), but I came to understand that I would never be able to attain unto salvation by seeking to do good works. If one seeks to be saved in that way, he must be perfect in all that he does. He is not allowed to break even one of the smallest of Commandments. Only One has been successful in that and that is Jesus. He did live perfectly before God and then laid down His life for all of our imperfections. Paul tells us that He will glorify in his own weaknesses (sins) for in that he brings glory to God's wonderful grace. 

It is very possible that not all who claim to be Christians are really Christian (obviously I cannot be the judge of theses). However, that narrow road is well-defined by Scripture. Jesus is that road. He is the only way there is to enter into those pearly gates. It is not by our efforts that we will enter. It is only through His grace. It is through our faith in Him as our Savior and not our ability to do certain things. My faith is that when I fall, He will pick me up. When I stumble, He will make my path sure. My faith is in Him completely and none in myself. If you ask about me I will tell you of my weakness. I will not glory in the works that I have accomplished. No man can produce fruit unless he is in the vine. All life comes from Him and none from ourselves. All glory goes to Him.

When you speak of the authority of God's Word, you will not find me arguing about that. It is the authority of God's Word that causes me to believe only in Him and in no other way. It is good that you are seeking to do God's will. So am I. However, I have learned by now that it is impossible for me to do everything right. You have learned that so far you have not been able to do everything right but perhaps still believe that someday you will attain that perfection. I can tell you that you are too weak to ever attain unto perfection in yourself. You, like all the rest of us, must depend entirely upon God's grace and the work of Jesus. There is no other way spelled out in Scripture to heaven. It is the only way. 

I would not focus on others as much but focus more on Jesus. I would encourage all to look to Him, the Author and Finisher of our faith. I would encourage all to come to Him and have their burdens lifted. He will save us from all our sins. Blessed be our Lord and Savior Jesus.

Blessings.

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Permalink Reply by ribbon on January 23, 2014 at 3:33am

My faith is that when I fall, He will pick me up. When I stumble, He will make my path sure. My faith is in Him completely and none in myself.

IMO the trouble with that is so many people are taught that since sin doesn't matter...... there isn't any such thing as falling or stumbling.

It is the responsibility of a chosen one to go and sin no more.

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Permalink Reply by RoyW on January 23, 2014 at 3:52am

Confused,

You are way too focused on what others are doing. That is my opinion which is really not worth much. 

No one is saying not to worry about sin. We are all working very hard to overcome our sin. What we are saying is that sin in itself will not send you to hell. Unbelief is what sends people to hell. In Jesus, all our sins are forgiven. That, in no way, indicates that sin does not have its consequences. Sin is evil. Sin is very harmful to us. Sin will send all unbelievers to hell. 

We are all sinners. You still sin even though you now hate that sin or weakness having become one of God's children. Yet, because of what He has done, that sin is forgiven. That is why we rejoice. We do not rejoice in our sin. We rejoice in that our sins are all forgiven - all of them. 

Have you overcome all your sin? Of course you haven't. How is it possible to judge yourself better than others? What you are really doing is attempting to make yourself feel better about yourself by focusing on the weaknesses of others. That is a very discouraging way to go. I know you are weak and I know that the only hope you have is in Jesus. Is your faith in Him? If so, then all your sins are forgiven and you can be happy, now. 

Rejoice in Him. Do not focus on your works or the works of others. Focus on Him.

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Permalink Reply by ribbon on January 23, 2014 at 4:04am

Roy the difference between me and the people who have a false sence of salvation is I know Im not saved. I know I am lost.  My focus isn't on just their wrong doing. My focus is on false teaching. My focus is on my family my kids. I don't want people telling them its ok to stay the same. I believe that is  putting them in danger of hell fire. I mention peoples continued sin is because I think they have been falsly taught that they are saved when they are most likely not. I mention it to you before because you seem to always pop in from nowhere in the forums to defend sin. I do know that the true Christians may fall or stumble and I do believe that Jesus will help them back up. I have no doubt about that. I also believe that there is false salvation and when there are folks teaching .... things like aw shucks its ok go ahead and drink ,party cuss cheat on your spouses ... hate your enemy  hate your parents ... steal all you want ... kill in your mind ect ect. And these people who do these things don't give a flip if they change or don't. In their mind this is what being a Christian is all about. Im not talking about sin from a non believer or an unsaved person. I am talking about the so called wrongly taught false Christians. Judge them by their fruits. What kind of fruit is the above?  I have been wronged by more self made Christians than I have from the ones who wont step foot in a church. I am sorry Chris....

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Permalink Reply by ribbon on January 23, 2014 at 4:09am

Also I think it is dangerous to teach people that sin is cool with God. I am curious........ How is not sinning ,Works? I always thought good works was like doing things like going and feeding the hungry... cleaning the churches things like that. And I know someone doesn't get saved by works... but I still believe that the true born agains will be changed.

Permalink Reply by RoyW on January 23, 2014 at 5:55am

Confused,

Sin is not "cool." Sin is evil. It is very harmful. Sin separates a person from God which is the ultimate bad consequence of sin. However, sins can be forgiven over and over and over again. That is the most important reason Jesus came to this earth. He came to reconcile us to God even though in this life we will never completely overcome all our sin.

God is a righteous God. He cannot simply overlook our sin. Yet, He does want us to be a part of His family. He wants you to be a part of His family. He does know, however, that you will never be completely free from all your sin. And even if you could become perfect and not ever sin again, you would still have all that old sin that you participated in yet to deal with. You remain absolutely guilty and not able to do a thing about it. There you go. You are in an impossible situation. There is absolutely nothing you can do about it. Someone had to come and do something about it for you. And, of course, Someone did come and do something about your sin for you. He paid for all your sin 100%. There is nothing left for you to pay or to do for your salvation. What we do is simply receive by faith what has already been done for us. That faith is not a work on our part for even that has been given us by God's grace. You see, we do nothing. We receive an absolutely free gift. 

When you truly believe in these things, you WILL respond to Him. You will want to do good works. You will strive to do good works. You might even be successful in doing a few good works. Yet, even then, you could not take any credit for those few good works for all you are doing in responding to a very powerful force called God's love that is so overwhelming you can do nothing other than to respond. You will be giving, loving (even if only to a certain degree), kind, etc., etc. That is no longer you. That is you in Him. Once you realize that He has done everything for you and that there is nothing left for you to do, you will do more than you ever dreamed possible. You were dead but now alive. Dead people can't accomplish anything but when they become alive, watch out. 

I am encouraging you to quit worrying about others so much. They all will fail and so will you and I. Yet, Christ gave His all, He paid it all (and He has the right and power to do so) for all our failures. In Him we are healed. We are made completely whole and someday we will be made completely brand new. He isn't charging a single cent for all He has accomplished for us. It is ALL paid for. 

I read where LT said that we don't start with grace and then proceed with works. Our whole salvation is completely by God's grace. When I finally realized what He had done for me, I went to work for Him in a brand new way and I have been working for Him ever since. Why? - to earn His approval or to keep my salvation? Of course not, I am working because of this overwhelming love that is surging through my soul and I can't stop it. I am powerless to do anything but respond to His love. I am still about as far from perfect as I ever was. I may have made a little progress over the forty years since learning about His grace but I am just as saved as I was the day I began this walk. I am not more saved now for when He saved me from my sins, I was completely saved. I am blessed. I am healed. I am whole. I am wonderfully blessed. I belong to Him. 

You will never be good enough. Yet, you can receive freely what He has done for you. Remember, it is not what you do, it is what He has done for you. You can receive that or reject it but you can never earn it. Quit trying to earn it and just receive that free gift of salvation. Don't worry about what you will do or not do tomorrow. Let Him take care of all of that. You can completely forget about living a life without sin. It is simply not going to happen. If someone tells you they don't sin, they are lying to you. 

Jesus paid it all. All to Him I owe. Sin has left a crimson stain. He washed it white as snow. :)

Blessings. 

Permalink Reply by ribbon on January 23, 2014 at 6:10am

LT and Roy, Thank you for taking time out for me. I appreciate it more than you think. I know you are both busy people.

You are right Roy I am concerned about peoples salvation. It scares me about my own and it scares me about theirs. Especially when I remember the "I knew you not" scripture. To me IMO  the Christians should speak boldly about this scripture. People who think they are saved but are not. Everlasting hell fire and the absence of God..... seriously something to think about. Who are those people who thought they were saved but God knew them not?  I remember several years ago I thought I was heaven bound.......and the Lord knew I still had a cussing mouth and knew my hateful thoughts. I battled them though and still believed I was heaven bound. My thoughts and heart are so messed up . I am embarrassed that I am not a chosen .

Permalink Reply by Amanda on January 23, 2014 at 9:56am

You asked: "Who are those people who thought they were saved but God knew them not?"


I believe the lawlessness of those in Matthew 7 to whom Jesus says, "I never knew you" involves a severance from Christ as mentioned in Galations 5:4, "You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace." Those people attempt to be trying to convince Jesus that their works alone, done in His name of course, should be enough to justify their entrance into heaven, but works done in His name do not mean Christ knows someone.

We also read in 2 Peter 3:17-18:

"You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen." ESV

Why are they called lawless? To be lawless means to be disobedient, doesn't it, to sin, to break the law? So, why are they called lawless when they have done good works? 

The answer is because all have sinned and sin must be pardoned. Our justification (pardon) is through Christ alone. Our works, our obedience, doesn't justify our sin or justify us before God, not before we're born again, nor afterwards. 

That's what I see from the passage in Matthew 7. I see people wanting to be justified because of good works. 

We know that without holiness no one will see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). But we learn this truth in verse 10 of Hebrews 12, "For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness." 

We are eternally secure. As His children, He knows us, and He disciplines us so that we will have His holiness. Not everyone is at the same level of spiritual maturity, but Jesus isn't going to lose any of His beloved. Christ is performing a deep heart transformation in us that only He can perform. Christ is the center, not us and most definitely not our works. Christ our Redeemer.

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