I've read so many thoughts on forgiveness. Many people quote Matthew 5:23-24 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. Some say this means you need to go and personally forgive someone who has wronged you. Some say by using the word "brother", this is speaking of Christians and not those who are unsaved.
I read this verse where someone added in parenthesis: that thy brother hath ought against thee (or vice versa)...Really? Is that what this says?
Now forgiveness is vital cause if we don't forgive, God won't forgive us. I've often said I believe when Jesus said we're to forgive 70 x 7, that it wasn't just meaning we forgive every time. There is scripture that says we're to do just that - Luke 17:3-4 “If your brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them. Even if they sin against you seven times in a day and seven times come back to you saying ‘I repent,’ you must forgive them.”
But then we forgive and forgive and yet the hurt keeps cropping up and we ask ourselves...HAVE I forgiven, really forgiven? Corrie Ten Boom, who probably had more to forgive than any of us here might ever face, wrote:
I recall the time, some 15 years ago, when some Christian friends whom I loved and trusted did something which hurt me. You would have thought that, having forgiven the Nazi guard, this would have been child's play. It wasn't. For weeks I seethed inside. But at last I asked God again to work His miracle in me. And again it happened: First the cold-blooded decision to obey, then the flood of joy and peace. I had forgiven my friends; I was restored to my Father.
Then why was I suddenly awake in the middle of the night, hashing over the whole affair again? My friends! I thought. People I loved! If it had been strangers, I wouldn't have minded so.
I sat up and switched on the light. "Father, I thought it was all forgiven! Please help me to do it!"
But the next night I woke up again. The negative thoughts returned. They'd talked so sweetly too! Never a hint of what they were planning. "Father!" I cried in alarm. "Help me!"
His help came in the form of a kindly pastor to whom I confessed my failure after two sleepless weeks. "Up in that church tower, " he said, nodding out the window, "is a bell which is rung by pulling on a rope. But you know what? After the sexton lets go of the rope, the bell keeps on swinging. First ding then dong. Slower and slower until there's a final dong and it stops.
"I believe the same thing is true of forgiveness. When we forgive someone, we take our hand off the rope. But if we've been tugging at our grievances for a long time, we mustn't be surprised if the old angry thoughts keep coming for a while. They're just the ding-dongs of the old bell slowing down."
And so it proved to be. There were a few more midnight reverberations, a couple of dings when the subject came up in my conversation. But the force--which was my willingness in the matter--had gone out of them. They came less and less often and at last stopped altogether.
But going back to Matthew 5:23-24, I believe this to mean exactly what it states: If you remember your brother has something against you, to go and be reconciled. And this because one book later, Mark 11:25 teaches us: And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in Heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
If we have something against someone we're to forgive, we're not told to go and be reconciled...they may not want reconciliation. They may not even believer there's anything to reconcile.
Scripture tells us to be wise and discerning. How many have tried to follow well meaning advice to go and tell someone who hurt them that they forgive them, just to have that person be offended in believing they had nothing to be forgiven for? If we're to try to keep peace with everyone, how would this be peaceful? Isn't that stirring up strife? It seems to me it would be pushing the hurt in the person's face. I mean....I just wanted you to know that you hurt me really bad, but I forgive you!???
When WE hurt others, I believe this is where Matthew is teaching us to let them know we're sorry. It's then their place to accept the apology or not.
But isn't a silent forgiveness of the person or the hurt to God often the better course of action when you are dealing with someone who has hurt you? Especially if it is purposeful, continuing, or there is a refusal to acknowledge they've done wrong?
Tags:
Seek,
Here is a message on this topic from 2009 if you are interested in listening:
We Must Learn To Forgive As We Have Been Forgiven
(Outline and audio of the message is in a blog I created today)
Lord Bless,
LT
Matthew 5:23-24 When we have been sinned against, we have three choices. 1) We can execute the disciplinary process of Matthew 18:15-20
2) We can forgive them and release them of their guilt towards us.
3) We can hold on to the anger and hurt.
There are two aspects regarding this when we choose to forgive.
1) Forgive them immediately before Father God. Matthew 18:21-22 - In this account there is no mention of them coming and asking for forgiveness.
2) Forgive them face-to-face. Luke 17:3-4 - In this account we see the person coming and asking for forgiveness.
There are two principles at work. One is forgiveness and the other is trust. If a person asks to be forgiven 70 times for the same offense, sincere or not, I will forgive them because I have already taken the first step and forgiven them before Father God even before they ask for forgiveness. This extension of forgiveness does not intimate that all is as it was before and that any trust that was broken is now too restored. A simple example, if I were to give someone access to my bank account and they wiped it clean I would take step one and that is to forgive them before Father God and if they asked for forgiveness I would extend the forgiveness to them, but that does not mean I would give them access to my bank account again. Therefore, broken trust to be restored to a level of trust one will have to earn that trust, and it is very likely depending on the trust broken it may never reach the previous level of trust ever again, and at the same time I am compelled to forgive them because of the Biblical command and the benefit it brings to my life as you have already noted. One more point, if the person stole the money from me I have the right to expect some form of justice that may include criminal charges and/or restitution, though I am also free to forgo that and release them of the physical debt as well. To give another example along these lines, if someone borrowed money from me and then told me they were not going to pay me back on purpose, but asked for forgiveness for failing to pay I would forgive their action before Father God (even if they did not ask) and yet still hold them accountable for the debt they agreed to repay. I am free to forgive the debt, but that is a different usage of the word "forgive." To expect payment is seeking the other to fulfill the agreement and is not the same as holding a grudge.
Regarding a Corinthians 5:5 they are told to do this for the person's good. this is not the first step, but last resort. Because they love the person and want the best for them knowing they will not change unless something drastic happens they take the Biblical step to expel them and turn them over the the wiles of Satan. I believe because they love the person they have forgiven the offense, but the action that continues is detrimental to the person primarily and has a secondary affect on the body as a whole. The action both cleanses the body and puts the person in a place where they (because they are a believer) will have to deal with their sin, for Satan is not celebrating their arrival, but will torment them because they are a child of God who has been removed from the covering for a time to come under conviction. I believe this is a form of divine discipline.
Amanda,
First, no one ever forgets. That is a fable ... unless God erases the memory. I remember many of my past pains, but I have no anger towards them, nor drive to get even ... that has not always been the case. Where I grew up you did not get even, you made sure the response surpassed the action against you. Growing up in the inner-city that was the perception of what it took to survive. I believe that the answer regarding young children (and keep in mind we are talking young before too many responses are learned through experience and witnessing the actions of others) is their actual actions and response to each other post event. Most young children will have their issue and minutes after they are playing with no visible animosity, anger or retribution. If asked about the early event they will be hard pressed to remember the "why" of the event. We can get into all the psychology of the event which is not relevant to the observable action that reveals they have put it behind them and moved on. Most adults cannot do that.
Both Matthew 18 and 1 Corinthians 5 are not talking about a casual event. These relate to something major and/or ongoing. In both cases the idea is the health both parties. 1 Corinthians 5 unchecked would have infected the body and given freedom to others to follow that pattern, especially the impression this left unchecked would have had on the teens and younger, but even here the goal is the perpetrators health and restoration. The church is not acting out of anger (*note below), but is acting in accordance to what is best for both. Matthew 18 also has the same basic view. Sin cannot go left unchecked, but the goal is not the excommunicating of the person, but the restoration. We can forgive and separate at the same time. It is hard for most people to distinguish between the two actions because we often associate the separation as punishment when, if acting in alignment with God's Word, it is for their good, It is true that some who are excommunicated never return ... this takes us in another direction regarding the salvation and I don"t want to go any further on that at this time.
Also, because we forgive someone does not mean that we are not still hurt and feeling the long term affect of that hurt, but is does mean that we are not wanting God to judge them, to send them to hell because of what they have done to us ... and that is what most want while not stating it as such. Some might would say I am wrong, that they only want God to beat them up a little bit (a little humor), but the point is the same. Because of what we experience we are not free to ask God to extract a little pain on them. The quickest way to heal from an infraction against us is to give it over to the holy, righteous and just God. I believe 1 Peter 5:7 includes this when talking about out anxiety being cast on Him.
Regarding your last paragraph it depends on the definition you apply to the word discipline. If we are talking giving the person a beating we are wrong. If we are talking about bending the will and life of a person so that they come into alignment with God we are right. We ere when we try to tell God how to do it. Do we have a biblical right to recover what has been taken from us through legal means or proper actions? I believe we do and again we can separate the two issues of the individual, including what they have done, and what has been taken from me that I want back. Example, if I were attacked on the street and shot by the perpetrator I would forgive them of the guilt against me, but would want to see them brought to trial so as to not be able to repeat the scenario with another, but as you said there are somethings that the state will pick up even if you wanted to let it go. If someone took my money I have the right to want it back, but am free to forgive (different usage) the items. In this case they did not ask for my tunic and me offer more than ... they stole it and that is breaking God's rules for living and there is justification and consequences for bad actions. The key at this point is to be sure that my idea of justification and consequences do not exceed God's view as we seek to align with Him.
(Note from above: This is one of the problems the church faces today. Many of its actions appear to be motivated by anger. The world perceives the church as an angry person instead of one looking out for what is best for them in the larger scope of life.)
Hope that helps as sometimes long responses lead to more confusion that clarity.
I guess I'm having trouble separating what it means to want someone to "make it up" to you. For instance, regarding stolen money, I know there are verses that say if someone is caught stealing, he or she will be required to pay back seven times more, or something to that extent,
There is a difference between making it up to you and giving back to you what is yours. If you steal my car … I want my car back. If you beat me up you cannot un-beat me up. So there are different types of actions that involve various points or things. Thus, there cannot be a simple one size fits all. What we can say is that for each type of situation based on the action there are consequences … good or bad. We are called to forgive the wrong before Father God, but that does not mean that we do not have the right to expect to be made, using the legal term, whole again. Yet, as already stated, there are things that cannot be undone once done. These too require us to forgive before Father God and the other person if asked, remembering that forgiving them when they ask is easy if we have truly forgiven them before Father God. This forgiveness in no way implies that the relationship will return to what it was. Neither does it imply that we forgive and trust again as before. Broken trust requires rebuilding and that takes time and depending on the breach may never return to a previous level.
But in the case of wanting the retribution, are we allowed to want it and to ask God for vengeance? Or does that mean we aren’t forgiving and turning it over to God?
There is room for debate as to what we are allowed regarding your question if we read David in the Psalms. I believe, though, that as we read David we find that He was in the midst of the conflict we He asked God to (Insert you choice as there are many to choose from) his enemies who were actively seeking to destroy him. Here, again, we break into a different direction and are now talking about self-defense of which I believe Scripture clearly gives us the right to defend ourselves against those actively seeking to harm us. In Scripture we see that Jesus surrendered His life, Stephen saw Jesus ready to receive Him and Paul knew he was headed to Jerusalem in their particular cases. Jesus stated that He could call upon the Father and He would send angels, but that would have thwarted His purpose for being here in the first place. May I add one more point to this and that is there is a difference between vengeance and justice.
I also think of the parable of the persistent widow, who wanted justice. I've been told before that forgiveness isn't true forgiveness if you keep bringing the matter up again, reminding the person of what they did,
There is a difference between dropping the offense into the conversation as an agitator and say asking the person to pay back what they owe. Thus, the question would be what is the motivation and purpose for bringing it up?
nor have I forgiven if I won't reconcile and give people another chance, as in the case of Matthew 18:22.
What is reconciliation? If we define it like most we are in error. Reconciliation to most means to restore something to the way it was, but that will not happen, again depending on the type of offense and the degree of the offense. Let’s say someone does something to me and we reconcile after a two year breach (for the sake of discussion, I wanted to reconcile and they refused for two years) after we reconcile we cannot be like we were. Two years have passed. We both have changed and we have a history that affected our trust level. Thus, the idea of returning to the way it was with all forgotten and forgiven is a fable. Forgiven? Yes! Forgotten? Forgotten only if God erases our memory. Trust restored? Only time can do that moving forward. The way it was? Can’t be for time has passed and we have changed. Now, note, it could be better than before or never as good as before, but never the same for that time has passed … for even in our relationships that are good they do not remain the same … they are ever changing for the better or worse.
It's true that some people are seeking to change and keep resorting back to old behaviors, fighting the flesh, but sometimes it's true that they are taking advantage, too. But since we don't know hearts, we can't know motives.
Forgiveness is not based on their motive, but on God’s command to forgive. First we forgive them before Father God and secondly if we are asked to forgive them in person. Trust is another issue as already stated.
I think I understand better now what you mean by children with other children forgiving and not remembering for the most part, between themselves, and adults having a long memory, but I think, too, how sensitive someone is plays a part, and some children are very sensitive and do have trouble, the same as adults.
We can go off on the psychology trail, but I do not want to. The base point is that children, before learning other behaviors, will forgive and move on playing with the child who they had the altercation with without animosity or negativity. Are there exceptions … I am sure, but not the norm.
How do you know when to give someone a chance again? When to reconcile and let them back in?
Tough question and each situation will have to be weighed individually. There are some principles that can apply, but not a broad brush. Here are just two …
1. What is your pain level even after forgiving them?
2. Do they demonstrate true remorse, remembering forgiveness is before Father God? Trust has to be earned. A person has to earn my trust to walk in my inner circle with me.
You're welcome. I hope it helped at least a little.
Lord Bless,
LT
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