Evolution

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Permalink Reply by RoyW on October 23, 2013 at 5:45am

Amanda,

I am not wanting to be contentious but I see no way in Scripture to interpret those six days and the seventh day of rest in any other way than seven literal days. I have read some to say that the original Hebrew does possibly indicate six long periods of time. I am not a Hebrew scholar so I have to rely on some of the helps available to an English person. 

Taking the verses like Ex 20:11 and 31:17 in context, I am being instructed to take a day of rest. I am to reserve the seventh day. Then I am told that God created the heavens and the earth in six days and rested on the seventh day as an example of how I am to live my life. Should I now believe that He really didn't make the heavens and earth in six days and rest on the seventh? Given other passages when a certain number of days are used, do we translate any of them as long periods of time? I have often considered Daniel's seventy weeks as representing 490 years as a way to interpret these six days as meaning something other that literal days. Does God here indicate to me that He made the heavens and the earth in six days only to teach me about how I am supposed to live but that He really didn't make the heavens and the earth in six days. 

In my simple thought life I then consider the reasons to believe these six days represent six long periods of time. What is the purpose of that? I have read some reasoning that to not say these are six days but six long periods of time makes the Bible less offensive to our present world and more inviting. I personally think that reasoning is ridiculous. 

The only reason I can really come up with to believe the six days are six long periods of time is to make the Bible agree with some modern ideas of billions of years. I think this is the weakest idea of all since man knows so very little about this universe. Much of mankind today does believe in billions of years. It seems very odd to them that someone believes this universe is very young. But that philosophy requires us to get rid of God's miraculous powers which I am not even remotely willing to do. I am of the kind that believe that the only One that really knows says He made the heavens and the earth in six days. I see many indications that these Words can be trusted. I see things being said that Moses could have never understood - only God would have known about these things. For instance, God says He made light on day one and the sun on day four. I doubt that would have made much sense or any sense to Moses but now we understand what God was saying. Today we are beginning to understand the concept of energy. Only God would have known that then.

No, I believe the strong pressure to interpret these verses as six long periods of time are to compromise with modern philosophy. Much of modern philosophy believes in the Big Bang. The Big Bang is more of a philosophy than a theory. Since it cannot be tested, it must remain mostly philosophical. The Big Bang has many strong believers. I am not one of them. I see no reason to dismiss what God said based on philosophy. Science can never know how all things began. That will have to remain a mystery to them. I guess some feel you have to believe something and since they do not believe in miracles, the Big Bang is the other best option out there. Have you ever listened to Lawrence Krauss talk about the universe coming out of nothing. It is hilarious. I understand why atheists have to do this. I do not understand why a Christian would go along with these concepts. The concept is ridiculous. 

I can certainly understand the unbelievers. I cannot understand believers saying they believe the six days represent six long periods of time. I can understand them saying that they don't know. I don't understand believing God was giving us a parable or something like that. There is no reason given in the Passage for me to assume that. If you say I just don't want to rule out that possibility I can go along with that. However, to say you believe in billions of years is to me to deny God's Word. In my understanding, when a person denies God's Word he or she is in big trouble. I don't think I should just sit idly by allowing that. Some tell me that it is none of my business what others believe. Well, there are some in the Bible that would disagree with that. Jesus was one of them. He often corrected those based on His knowledge of Scripture. I'm not Jesus and so I ask them to show me in God's Word why I should interpret that as six long periods of time. So far I have not had one single person or read one single reason why I should interpret that as six long periods of time. I see no reason to do so. Could God have done that and left the universe looking like it does today. Of course He could. He can do anything. If God says He made all of space in one day, He destroys the Big Bang. I do have to believe that He created the universe with the appearance of age but I also have to believe He made the plants, animals and living creatures also with the appearance of age. I see no reason not to believe that since Jesus did show us how easy it was to make something out of nothing. I wish I was more like Him. I think someday I will be able to be more like Him and that is what I am living for. Jesus was easily able to defy physical law. He is amazing. He is God. Why do people want to question Him. He said He died for my sins. I am going to receive everything about Him. He is God. He can do anything. He can even take away my sins. O, what a Savior. 

I do believe that to accept Him we have to believe in Him. He taught a literal Genesis. Eventually, all will have to believe in Him or deny Him. 

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Permalink Reply by Amanda on October 23, 2013 at 2:49pm

Roy,

Neither was Jesus being contentious but many turned away from Him in John 6:66.

From creation itself, until now, and forever, it's always been about Jesus. 

"For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him" Colossians 1:16, ESV.

"Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made" John 1:3.*

"For from him and through him and for him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen" Romans 11:36.*

"yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live" 1 Cor 8:6.*
*NIV

In Hebrews 4 it mentions God resting on the seventh day from His works. This is a hard teaching, too. I'm only beginning to understand it. I'm just skimming its surface. It's slowly sinking in -- just how much Jesus has done for us. 

Hebrews 4
English Standard Version (ESV)
4 Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it. 2 For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened.[a] 3 For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said,

“As I swore in my wrath,
‘They shall not enter my rest,’”
although his works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all his works.” 5 And again in this passage he said,

“They shall not enter my rest.”
6 Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience, 7 again he appoints a certain day, “Today,” saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted,

“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts.”
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God[b] would not have spoken of another day later on. 9 So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, 10 for whoever has entered God's rest has also rested from his works as God did from his.

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Permalink Reply by RoyW on October 23, 2013 at 4:01pm

Amanda,

I can see that you understand why the six days are so important. God had a distinct purpose for making the heavens and the earth in six days and shares it with us in these two passages in Exodus. It seems a great part of the church is forsaking the six days in favor of a more compatible billions of years interpretation (where they get it I cannot find). What I cannot understand is "why." 

Man has built gigantic telescopes that allow him to peer deeper and deeper into space. He has developed very powerful microscopes that give him him access to information into cellular biology that gives him amazing almost unbelievable images. Man is awed by what he sees. This quest for knowledge is costing our world into the billions. What has all this expense yielded? What has come from all this expense is true science admitting that we know very little about the universe in which we reside. 

I have videos of scientists explaining how little we know about our universe. One of the secular videos I show my kids in school begins with the narrator saying: "Out there, hidden from the naked eye, is a universe we barely understand." Another video quotes David Bolinsky, a medical illustrator that developed a graphic video of a cell at work for the Harvard Medical School to help train our future doctors, as saying, "We almost know a percent of what is going on (referring to the complicated cellular structure)." That is an exact quote. 

When I play videos like that to my kids at school and at my son's church, they immediately catch the significance of such statements. These scientists are honest. They really do not know a whole lot about what is going on when we speak of the universe and cellular life. They gape at the wonders of the living cell and have no idea what is going on. They see all these little micro machines that all have to function simultaneously in order for a living cell to work. Darwin never even imagined anything of this magnitude in complexity. I'm sure you are aware of his quote about the complexity of an organism. He said to the effect if it could be shown that an organism was so complex that successive numerous accidental changes could not explain its development, his theory would break down. Well, Charles, guess what - it is beyond complex. Complex doesn't begin to describe one of our hundred trillion cells let alone an organism. By the way, I believe Darwin will probably be in heaven. But, that's another issue. 

So, why all  the fuss? Why are so many abandoning ship and going with modern philosophy? That's my question. There remains many very honest scientists. It is foolish for these that say there is no God and that evolution explains our origin based on so very little information. Let's be honest! We do not understand the universe nor the simplest of living cells. Yet, there are some philosophers that have terrorized the church stating that science has disproved the Bible to the degree that many are scrambling to reinterpret Scripture so they don't lose their precious jobs. 

Believers have nothing to worry about. There is nothing out there to disprove Scripture. Scripture is still way ahead of present day knowledge. God predicts a new heaven and earth while we today are still trying to understand this one. The physical laws that God made are so far advanced to our meager ability to gain knowledge. Jesus showed how just how powerful He was. If some believe His works, why do they not believe His Words? 

I guess I remain unconvinced that faith in His Word is not necessary to salvation. There will always be those that will say they believe in Christ yet agree with the world when it contradicts Scripture. I think they want to be a part of both worlds. Jesus instructed us to reject this world and follow Him. I think that includes believing Scripture which He spoke of continually. 

Yet, none of us are perfect. We all fail in so many ways. I guess one of my strengths is not being intimidated by this world's philosophies. Let's don't get into my weaknesses. I need Jesus today as much as I have ever needed Him. My only hope is Him. He promised to keep me. If I get lost, He will come and get me. I know He can do the same for these that have gotten lost to these worldly philosophies. 

Thank you for these verses. They are a great blessing to me and I know to others. Your study is very valuable to His Kingdom. You have blessed me this day. I am working overtime to write this. :)

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Permalink Reply by Amanda on October 23, 2013 at 4:52pm

I don't think I'm doing a very good job though of explaining what I'm learning. I'm afraid some think Jesus being our sabbath and keeping the seventh day sabbath holy is the same thing. Then Romans 14:5 gets thrown in and it looks like Jesus being our sabbath becomes only a preference, but the rest that Jesus gives is found in Matthew 11:28.  He kept the whole law and was sinless. Then He died for us, paying our penalty.

If you look at Hebrews 4:3, it says "For we who have believed enter that rest" and "his works were finished from the foundation of the world" and that amazes me. 

Doesn't it mean that after the sixth day, it was a done deal? 

Although it hadn't unfolded yet, when God rested the seventh day, it was a done deal. 

Revelation 13:8 mentions the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world and I wish I knew how to help others understand but I'm only just beginning to see it myself. 

The following passage also mentions Jesus and the foundation of the world.

1 Peter 1:17-21
English Standard Version (ESV)
17 And if you call on him as Father who judges impartially according to each one's deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile, 18 knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. 20 He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you 21 who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

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Permalink Reply by RoyW on October 23, 2013 at 6:16pm

The Revelation 13:8 Passage could also be speaking of those that were ordained to belong to Him even before the world was created. I'm not sure if He is getting beyond our minds speaking of time in a way we do not understand. It is obvious that before man was ever made, the whole plan of salvation was put into being. Our salvation has never been in doubt. The Books were written before even creation itself. I am really enjoying your discussions. Time to go to church but keep the posts coming. 

Blessings.

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Permalink Reply by RoyW on October 24, 2013 at 4:34am

All this is way beyond me. How God created this universe is known only to Him. As I mentioned, as we peer deeper and deeper into space through massive telescopes and voyagers escaping our own galaxy, we are struggling to know about our own existence. There are so many questions and the more we learn the more questions we have. I love the explorations of science. However, I hear them saying things indicating they have no idea what is really going on. They are still trying to figure out what holds all things together and what keeps things from imploding or exploding. 

We are learning of galaxies beyond our imagination. It appears there are billions of them. Why did God make this universe so vast? Is He showing off? Just how big is God? I wonder about the energy in that living cell. He made the plants on day 3 but did not make animal or fish cells until day five and six. In the meantime He made the stars. On day one God made energy. On day two He made the expanse or space in which to place the stars. But what is out there deep in space in control. Is it vast amounts of water? On day two He separated the waters from the earth. He stretched out the heavens beneath the waters and put earth with just its small amount of water in its place. 

God made vast amounts of energy. Does it take that amount of energy to cause me to be able to think? Is there another purpose for all this energy? God's formula for life is beyond anything man can imagine even though sometimes he pretends he has it all figured out. Why did God make us with such egotism? Why do we think we have to know? Is that a result of all this energy? 

I do tend to think that all this energy in our universe is necessary for something. This physical universe requires energy and plenty of it and there is plenty. A quasar has up to hundreds of  million times more energy than our sun. How many of them are there out there? What are they? Why are they? 

Here's what I know. The universe works. Life exists. It is beyond complexity. The brightest of us all can barely begin to imagine much less understand what really is going on out there and inside of us. The heavens declare His glory. We are fearfully and wonderfully made. How can I see and hear and touch? What energy is involved? Did it take a universe to produce that? 

Why are we so willing to dismiss God's Word when a silly philosopher comes up with an idea of how it all began? He doesn't know. He can't know. It is far beyond His ability to know. He might just be a little more intelligent than us and intimidate us to the point of thinking He knows how it all happened. Can't we get beyond that? Why are we so intimidated by intelligence? Where is our faith?

Over and over Jesus reprimanded the disciples for their lack of faith. I guess we are in very good company when it comes to lacking faith. I think we lack confidence. I am told that Jesus took common man and built His church. He tells us that even the gates of hell will not prevail. The most amazing Book ever written was given to us. We have the knowledge. Maybe we are not the most intelligent but we have the Book. Maybe we are common but we are the masters. We have the secret of life and it is all right there in Genesis through Revelation. 

God told Moses that He began with energy. Then, He tells us His purpose. He made a family. Who would want to not be a part of that family? We are hurting our testimony when we tell the world we are not sure whether or not God created the world in six days. Why do we subject our children to nonsense - man's mere speculation as being factual? Why are we so intimidated? 

God is light. If He needs more, He has plenty to spare. He has the ability to make light. Why would we ever question Him? I agree that we should seek to understand what He said but He came to Moses and spoke to him face to face. Jesus confirmed to us that what He told Moses was true. Jesus is our example of faith. He trusted God's Word. He went to the cross in faith. His faith is rewarded with us. I'm not sure how that is such a great reward but He compares us to a pearl of great value. He sees something that we don't see. Why would He want me or you or even Grazer? 

We are very special. I am not sure why but I do believe we are the very reason for this great universe.  Jesus tell us that we are going to rule and reign with Him. Wow! We struggle  to take little simple commands. The disciples were surprised when Jesus actually did rise after He had told them over and over that He would come back from the dead. We doubt even the simplest of things He tells us.  How did Jesus get all that faith? I know He was God but He did become a man and set all that aside for a season. How did He do it?

It is far easier to believe in a six day creation than believing  God becoming a man. Are we really sure we are ready to abandon the necessity of believing His Word?  

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Permalink Reply by Amanda on October 24, 2013 at 10:23am

Roy,

You've probably read this article by Ken Ham, but I'm posting the link to "The Necessity of Believing in Six Literal Days."

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/cm/v18/n1/six-days

It begins with the following statement::

"The majority of Christians in churches probably aren’t sure whether God really created everything in six literal days. Many believe it doesn’t matter whether it took six days or six million years. However, it is vital to believe in six literal days for many reasons. Foremost is that allowing these days to be long periods of time undermines the foundations of the message of the Cross."

I do see that it is a necessary belief but no article convinced me. The Word of God did. The articles, such as this one, have only affirmed this truth to me. You affirm it, too. Thanks for sharing your wisdom.

I understand how someone who won't accept God's Word as God's Word will never accept the six literal days either, but, for me, Bibliology -- the Doctrine of the Scriptures -- or what is taught about the bible is an essential doctrine, and holding to sound doctrine is teaching that the Scriptures are the inspired Word of God, inerrant and infallible. Saying such things is being no more unloving than Jesus was being in John 6 and that is, not at all.

Permalink Reply by RoyW on October 24, 2013 at 1:55pm

Hi Amanda,

I'm not sure if I have read that or not. I have read some very much like it if I haven't read this particular one. His arguments are very sound. I do believe the Gospel is based on a literal Adam and Eve that ushered sin into our world. Jesus obviously did believe in and spoke of a literal Adam even though He does not mention his name. He puts Adam and Eve right there in the beginning of creation which could only be true if the six days were literal. Otherwise, man would be billions of years after creation. I agree that it is pressure from the outside that forces us to make the six days long periods of time. I do not see how it can be interpreted that way. I am not a Hebrew scholar but the best scholars were included in the translation of the Bible into English. They all have it six days indicating six 24 hour periods. None of them interpreted or translated it as six long periods of time. There is not even a hint that it is anything but six days. 

Permalink Reply by Tammy on November 2, 2013 at 5:38pm

Ken is suppose to be at a friend's church tomorrow morning  & evening.

Permalink Reply by RoyW on October 22, 2013 at 5:05am

I am curious which passages of Scripture that all feel are essential to the faith. There are some really important ones. These are the ones that you feel are critical. Doctrines like His virgin birth, His sinless life, His resurrection, etc - are these essential? 

Is it important to take things literally? For example - did He really feed five thousand or is that just a number thrown out there?

Are numbers important? Why did God emphasize that He made the heavens and the earth in six days? Did He have a reason or did He just throw that number out there and all that He was really saying was that He was the Creator? There is nothing poetic about Ex 20:11. Why is God telling us that He created this universe and all that is in it in six days? Is He willing for us to simply dismiss that? He put that right in the middle of the Ten Commandments. Are they essential? 

Of course God has a reason for giving us this information. God is establishing His perfect plan of salvation. God is establishing rest for those who believe. He gives them perfect rest in their faith. We are not to waver in our faith. I suppose that those who choose to believe (I don't believe faith is a choice) the Big Bang or similar theories do so because of recent theories. Charles Lyell came up with the idea that the different layers of the earth were laid down over millions and millions of years. Of course that dismisses the worldwide flood which they don't believe either. My question which is not answered is where do we stop. Why do you call this a six day theory? It is not theory anymore than any of these miracles. Virtually all believed the earth was young until this recent attack on Scripture. What gets me is those who are willing to just go along with these wolves that teach that the Bible is not true. 

We are presently losing 70 percent of those coming out of high schools. The data tells us that less than 50 percent of those will come back. Why are we telling our children that it is not necessary to believe in a six day creation? Is it because our schools have been so penetrated by these unbelievers and that we are so unwilling to take a stand that we have just dismissed this one doctrine? Are we afraid of these teachers? The six days plus the seventh is essential doctrine. When you remove this doctrine, you shatter the faith of many of those who are being told that really all of the Bible is mere speculation. 

Do you really believe man knows how old this universe is? Do you believe they can understand the simplest of living cells? I tell you they have nothing. They do not know what they are speaking about. All that they say outside of Scripture is speculation. Science is a wonderful part of our lives. The discussion of the age of the earth is not science. That is philosophy. The discussion on how man got here is not science. That is all speculation. The topic of macro evolution does not even rise to the point of being labeled a theory. It is purely philosophical. It is amazing to hear these philosophers speak of how old the earth and then hear them say that they know so little of this vast universe. I have them on video making these kinds of statements. They don't know. 

If you want to believe in Jesus, eventually you must go to the Bible as Jesus insists that we do. Jesus believed faith in Scripture was essential, for Scripture spoke of Him. The purpose of Scripture is to point us to Jesus and eventually usher us into that glorious place we call heaven - our home. Scripture is our guide. You cannot dismiss parts of Scripture and get away with it. We will pay a very heavy price for doing that. It is perfectly proper for us to admit that there are parts that we do not understand. However, dismissing those as non-essential is a mistake. We may not understand why God was so specific on this issue. We cannot just dismiss it as not being important. These wolves are lining up and saying specifically that God did not create the heavens in six days. They have no idea why that doctrine is essential but they are quick to say they know God did not create the heavens in six days. 

It is completely okay to say we do not understand how we can see starlight that is billions of light years away. It is okay to speculate different ideas but never okay to dismiss Scripture. Did God really meet with Moses in the wilderness and speak to him face to face as one friend speaks to another on many occasions? Did God really tell Moses this what we have in the Pentateuch? God camped all those people out there in the wilderness for forty years to enable us to have this information. I believe He made sure that Moses had it right. And I believe He has watched over His Word all these years to enable us to come to faith in Him. We should not be dismissing part of it as being non-essential to our faith. This is what we believe. This is where we stand. We will not be moved. We believe in our God. We will not waver. 

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Permalink Reply by RoyW on October 22, 2013 at 5:26am

Jenelle, you do not have to worry about anything you saw on CNN. I think it was David that explained all the hoaxes and the mistakes man has made when attempting to label a human as being a descendant of some much older creature. Common ancestry is a speculation that Darwin popularized nearly a hundred and fifty years ago. Man has been looking for those missing links all these years. They are spending millions and millions of dollars and some have even dedicated their lives to the finding of these fossils of missing links. From time to time they do announce that they have found a missing link. The reason they have not found the missing links is simply because those links do not exist. God's Word says over and over that He made all creatures and plants each after their own kinds. There is no common ancestry of the different living species on this earth. If this philosophy were true, they would have found millions and millions of these fossils as there would be billions and multiplied billions of these kinds of fossils. If this philosophy were true, the fossil record would scream out concerning this truth. When CNN reports that they may have found one of these fossils, it is laughable. Where are the billions of these fossils? We have millions and millions of those fossils that testify to the truth of God's Word. Where are the billions that would testify of this untrue claim of man? The simple truth is: they don't exist. You do not have to ever worry about these claims. They are not true. 

Understand, if their claim were true, there would be billions of fossils testifying to the truth of this claim. Can you imagine the amusement of God when they claim to have found one only to be shown the finding to be nothing more than one of the kinds that God has made. 

God made all creatures each after their own kind. Is that doctrine essential? Or, is that just another doctrine that gets far less discussion that can be dismissed?

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Permalink Reply by Jenelle Clark on October 22, 2013 at 8:15am

Thank you, Roy. That makes sense. It does seem like a lot of the atheists, and evolutionists are still looking for the "missing link." They claim us Christians are using God to fill in that missing gap until we can find that missing link. How long will it take for them to realize there is no missing link? The "missing link" they need to find is God. 

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