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does bible consistently show that when people FIRST recieve Holy Spirit they will speak in tongues?
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Permalink Reply by Amanda on
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LT, I agree. We seek Christ and not gifts or "stuff" and I did not mean to imply that as a motive. What I was asking about is sanctification, the second work of grace and when gifts are given by the Spirit. I just spoke with someone earlier by phone who does pray in tongues and I asked the person if they think they have been baptised by the Spirit and the answer was, "I don't feel I have been." I don't want to debate you tic for tac, or however. I also know you are busy.
What it boils down to from your stance is:
Some people are born again.
Some people are both born again and filled with the Spirit.
This discussion has asked the following:
so therefore we must conclude ther are DIFFERENT FUNCTIONS of speaking in tongues.. could one of the functions be to SHOW PROOF one has now recieved the holy spirit? how can we rule this out.. now i spoke in tongues when recieved holy spirit for first time, but i do not have the gift of speaking in tongues in the church to deliver message.. two different functions.. now i have prayed and began to speak in tongues a few times but not all the time.. so how can we disclaim the evidence of speaking in tongues
I guess the big question is: since speaking in tongues is not a gift that everyone receives when they experience the Baptism in the Spirit, will other gifts be given as evidence of the Baptism, or will people just know they have received the second work of grace even if they receive no gifts with it?
Personally, I think at salvation, when the Spirit indwells us, we are given the gifts that we need to do the works mentioned in Eph 2:10. I think sanctification begins at that time and I also believe there are times throughout one's life as a Christian when we receive a "filling of the Spirit" that helps us do the "special works" such as being a missionary or a martyr, etc...
I don't know why it is divided up into first work of grace, second work of grace, etc... The holiness church I was saved in believed in the second work of grace and taught it and gave altar calls for it as well as for salvation. It was a church that taught the trinity and all the gifts exisiting. It was a good place but no one in it spoke in tongues during the assembly. During prayer, they all prayed out loud around the altar and no one spoke in tongues while praying like that either. People did testify and got happy and raised their hands and praised God and sang.
So I don't know who is right. I know that I have had to do things in my life that I could never have done in my own power. I also have known times that felt like a wilderness experience, a very dry and thirsty place.
Jesus is living water and yet we do have dry spells if we are honest enough to admit it. We need new fillings from time to time.
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Permalink Reply by Tammy on
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Regarding your other question. I cannot answer your question without a tic-for-tac debate ensuing. I can tell you this with assurance. We need to spend more time seeking the Giver of the gifts than seeking the gifts. The Holy Spirit gives them as He deems appropriate, but our goal is never a gift, but God Himself. Amen
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Permalink Reply by a servant (Chris) on
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I have not read all the comments, so forgive me if I repeat things others have shared. Here is an example where Believers had not heard about Holy Spirit. John told of another to come after him, this of course is Jesus. Jesus spoke of another to come, this of course is Holy Spirit.
Acts 1:5 “John baptized with water, but in just a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.” So here we see Paul baptizing these people in the name of Jesus. Then he lays his hands on them, baptizing them in the Holy Spirit. Two different actions.
Acts 19:1-7 1 While Apollos was in Corinth, Paul traveled through the interior regions until he reached Ephesus, on the coast, where he found several believers. 2“Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” he asked them. “No,” they replied, “we haven’t even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” 3“Then what baptism did you experience?” he asked. And they replied, “The baptism of John.” 4 Paul said, “John’s baptism called for repentance from sin. But John himself told the people to believe in the one who would come later, meaning Jesus.” 5 As soon as they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 Then when Paul laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in other tongues and prophesied. 7 There were about twelve men in all
We all have different functions, still we all have the same goal. I have heard people say, “ speaking in tongues is of the devil.” Or. “If you do not speak in tongues then something is wrong with you.” Both are extreme, poorly informed, and just wrong. I believe speaking in tongues is based on faith. Those who speak in tongues and those who do not need not judge the other. Speaking in tongues is a tool, it is used in Prayer. In a group it is part of prophesying when it is interpreted. 1Cor 14:22-25 22 So you see that speaking in tongues is a sign, not for believers, but for unbelievers. Prophecy, however, is for the benefit of believers, not unbelievers. 23 Even so, if unbelievers or people who don’t understand these things come into your church meeting and hear everyone speaking in an unknown language, they will think you are crazy. 24 But if all of you are prophesying, and unbelievers or people who don’t understand these things come into your meeting, they will be convicted of sin and judged by what you say. 25 As they listen, their secret thoughts will be exposed, and they will fall to their knees and worship God, declaring, “God is truly here among you.” The most important thing is that we are all part of the Body of Christ. And, all these things must be kept in order when we are in an assembly. When we Pray alone, 1 Cor 14:2,4 2 For if you have the ability to speak in tongues, you will be talking only to God... 4 A person who speaks in tongues is strengthened personally, but one who speaks a word of prophecy strengthens the entire church. So speaking in tongues is good for our spirit, also since we are talking to God it is natural to Pray for others. And, we see that prophecy strengthens the entire Church. The Word is clear in the benefit and use of speaking in tongues. And, it never says people who do not, are bad. It is sad when one group feels superior to the other group.
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Permalink Reply by RoyW on
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It appears that the subject has entered into a phase of discussing if this is a second work of grace. I don't necessarily like that terminology but it would be very difficult to say that there is not a subsequent work of God in our lives. It may happen more than once. Jesus told the disciples to tarry for the power to accomplish the mission to carry the Gospel to the world. When that day happened, there was a mighty outpouring of His Spirit and they were all filled with His Spirit. We might think that this would be the initial coming of His Spirit and that from now on we have this infilling at the same time we are saved. It does not appear from Scripture that this is the case.
Part of the same group a few weeks later were threatened by the chief priests and Pharisees to not speak in the name of Jesus Christ. They had seen these people crucify their Lord and now they were threatening them. They lifted their voices to God and again they were filled with His Spirit and spoke the Word with boldness. We have other occasions where believers were filled with His Spirit. In Eph 5:18, the believers are instructed to be filled with His Spirit.
When the Bible speaks of being filled with His Spirit, it is not necessarily speaking of receiving His Spirit which obviously does happen at salvation. Being filled with His Spirit is an event that results of our carrying out of His commands in our lives. How do we ask for this in our lives? It appears that we do as the disciples did: we ask Him to enable us to accomplish His will for our lives. We become serious about His calling. We realize we cannot do it in our own power and we present ourselves to Him to be filled. It is also called being baptized with His Spirit. This is different than being baptized into Him.
Some can become technical and insist this doesn't happen anymore. However, there are just too many testifying to the experience - an experience where people receive power to carry out God's will in their lives. You are not asking God to give you a certain gift but you might just receive one. Your desire is to live for Him and fulfill His purpose in Your life.
We could also say that people are not being saved anymore. That, of course, would be nonsense. Some are still being baptized with His Spirit. It cannot be denied. When DL Moody realized in his life that he needed more, He went to the throne of Grace and asked God to fill him as He did those in the Bible. God graciously did fill Moody and the results in his own words was that hundreds began to come at his invitation to receive Jesus as Savior. His sermons did not get better, they just became anointed. It is the anointing that makes the difference. I remain thinking this should not be a point of contention among believers. I can see how it could become a point of disagreement if we attach speaking in tongues to this experience. That is going beyond Scripture but speaking of being filled with His Spirit is definitely not going beyond Scripture. We are promised the power to live our lives for God. I pray we will become mighty in Him to overcome the enemy. In Jesus name.
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Roy, perhaps you are finding it a contentious point but I don't see it that way. The main question I still have about the filling of the Spirit is if it is given to people who are carnal and not living right or if it is actually given to people who are living the right way for the right reason and God is pleased with them and blesses them with more of Himself. I see the latter statement to be more correct IMO. Even on the day of Pentecost they were waiting and staying in Jerusalem--following the Lord's instructions and doing as He asked. Elizabeth was already righteous and so was Zechariah. We know John lived righteously. Jesus never sinned at all. I will leave it at that though and say nothing else about it since it appears "contentious" to keep discussing it.
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I would agree with you. The encouragement in Eph 5 is that we are to not live carnal lives but to be filled with His Spirit. The chapter speaks of living a life in the Spirit rather than in the flesh. As believers we do have the tendencies from time to time to live like the rest of the world. Paul is telling us here that the fruit of the Spirit is righteousness and truth. Sometimes we just need to refresh ourselves with this chapter. Be filled with the Spirit. I really don't think that is something that we can do on our own. To be filled, we need to do as you have expressed those did on the day of Pentecost. They presented themselves to our holy God and asked Him to fulfill His purpose in them. They were graciously gifted. I don't see anywhere where He tells us that He is no longer going to do that for us.
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I must say I feel so very Blessed to have been caught up in the Charismatic movement, in the Catholic Church back in the mid-70's. We received lessons on the whole thing at one time. From becoming Born Again to being Baptized in Holy Spirit. Also, with the evidence of speaking in tongues. For this to happen in the Catholic Church was a trip anyway. We were never taught if someone did not speak in tongues, they were "wrong or something like that." As far as I know we all did, but if someone did not at first we just kept on Praying. Sadly though as quickly as the door opened it was closed. Most stayed, I am one of the few, the only one in my family that left the Church. To never be taught against something, is of great advantage. I never understood why the "door" closed, just very grateful that it opened for the short time that it did. So I am at a lose for many of the debates on the subject. JUST BE THANKFUL AND BLESSED THAT YOU HAVE THE TEACHING. WITHOUT EXPECTATION DO YOUR BEST NOT TO GRIEVE THE HOLY SPIRIT.
I am unable to understand much of the debate. First, Second, Third, Fourth on and on be Baptized in the Spirit, seek the Gifts, and live a live that brings Glory to Our Lord. Bar none this is the most Powerful and influential influence we can have this side of Glory, or whatever else the Father would have us do for Him.
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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Roy,
I do not like the termoinology especially well either. People tend to get hung up on the term and miss the meaning behind it or confuse it with other teachings or over time we see the original meaning get blended with the teachings of others leading to further confusion.
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My reasoning for the problem with the word "second" is simply because I think it can happen and does happen more than once. I think the first time it happens would be the second. However, it appears to me that it could happen again and does happen more than once (Acts 4). The term "second" has a tendency to put it on the same level as salvation which only happens once. We are saved once and then hopefully filled with His Spirit. I know people that were filled with His Spirit once thirty years ago and still functioning in that same infilling. To me that works for salvation but not for the infilling of His Spirit. I think the command to be filled with His Spirit may be speaking to those who have already had that second experience at one time. I think, however, that is just preference rather than a doctrinal statement which I do subscribe to. I wish we could come up with a better word than second. I like the words "subsequent" or maybe "continual." However, I do subscribe to the doctrine of the second work of grace.
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A one shot attempt to explain the term or fundction of "Second Work of Grace" in short fashion.
We are saved by grace and this of course is not a work and cannot be a work, but yet we do receive Jesus as Savior or we are not saved.
We are only filled (differentiating between indwelt and filled) with the Spirit by grace, this too cannot be a work, but we must receive Him. (Note that we are never told to "be" indwelt with the Holy Spirit. That happens at salvation. We are told to "be" filled with the Holy Spirit, and Paul is writting to the Church in Ephesus who are already saved.)
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Permalink Reply by JB on
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Here’s a little food for thought, when we are rooted and grounded in the Word, we have studied the Word, believed the Word and walk according to the Word, or we are doers of the word. We then are filled with the Spirit; Because His Word is Spirit, and life.
And the fruit of the spirit is Love, Joy; Peace etc. are we bearing the fruit of the Spirit?
Joe
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