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Do we have pain cause of faith...
So often we think we have no faith, or it is weak. Are we using faith because. we believe we will hurt after something happens. Or when we lack money we will not be able to pay our bills. Don't get me wrong. I would never dismiss anothers pain. Just a thought about the power of faith. Do not take any judgement from me on this. I deal w/ both constant pain and lack of funds. However, in the mind that is being renewed maybe this is something we should consider. What do you think ?
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Permalink Reply by Jane Smith on
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Nancy,
Would love to hear it in the appropriate thread or blog so we don't divert Chris's thread.
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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Beloved Chris,
The word Faith within the context of bilblical literature can mean multiple things. Check this article out, it's worth reading:
What is Biblical "Faith" ?
The Bible word "faith" is one of the most misunderstood words in the Scriptures.
The truth concerning this word "faith" is MOST IMPORTANT to Christian growth and success in the Christian life. Most people seem to think of "faith" as simply "believing". The stronger you can "believe", the more "faith" you are having.
People say "I sure wish I had your faith", and "just have faith", as if Biblical faith is a quality that we have control over, and that we can work up more "faith" by just "believing harder"! That misconception comes from assuming that the Bible word "faith" is a verb.
The common word for "faith" in the New Testament is the Greek word "pistis". This word is used 244 times in the New Testament, and it is a NOUN, not a verb! "Faith", the noun, in the New Testament is a three stage process:
1. God's Word is taken into our mind through hearing or reading, and by means of the Holy Spirit.
2. God tests us on that Word which is taken in, to see if we really "believe" it.
3. When the test is passed, God makes that Word a permanent part of our human soul, and we "grow". (God's Word resident in your soul is the only thing you can take to heaven with you).
Noun and verb examples:
I have come to see that the English language is one of the least precise and expressive languages on planet Earth. Our English dictionary often contains 10 or more definitions for the same word. Just for example, what do I mean when I say "bark"; do I mean the noise from a dog? Is it a boat? To hurt your shin? The covering on a tree? To speak sharply and loudly? To verbally advertise?
Not only do we have many definitions for one English word, but each usage and definition can be a noun OR verb, or some other part of speech! Bark - The noise a dog makes, can be a NOUN OR a VERB! When we tell the dog to "bark", it is a verb which tells the dog to ACT, and when we describe the dog's "bark", it is a noun describing the "thing" that the dog did. If you work crossword puzzles, I'm sure that you are very aware of this weakness in the English language.
Another example my wife and I recently bumped into is the word "author". We struggled with a crossword assuming that the word "author" was a noun, and we were looking for a "man's name". But, in the end, the word "author" was a VERB, meaning "to author" or write something.
An excellent Bible example, and one that has actually spawned religious denominations, is in 1 Pet 3:21, where the Greek word "baptisma" is translated "baptism". Some religious denominations believe this verse teaches "baptismal regeneration", that the "ACT" of water baptism itself regenerates or makes a person a born again child of God.
The Greek word "baptisma", in 1 Pet 3:21 is a NOUN, meaning the "THINGS" SIGNIFIED BY BAPTISM, it is NOT A VERB as the English reader would naturally assume! Peter is saying that "baptism doeth save us (is presently saving) ", meaning that the "things", or "Bible teachings", or "doctrines" CONCERNING baptism are now saving us.
What are those things, or teachings that baptism signifies? We are buried with Christ, sins washed away, raised in newness of life, the great doctrines of soteriology, or salvation, these are the "things" now saving us, not the verb, the ACT of baptism! The ACT of water baptism is a beautiful ritual that outwardly PORTRAYS what God HAS ALREADY DONE for us. The REALITY is what God does , the RITUAL is what we do to publicly acknowledge what God has done.
One of the many beauties of the Greek language of the New Testament is that the ending on the Greek word tells us the part of speech. Whether a word is a noun or verb is not up for grabs in the New Testament Greek, as it is in our English language. "Baptisma" is the noun, the things signified, and "baptizo" is the verb, meaning the "act" of baptism.
Our word "faith" is not ambiguous in the Greek:
--- "pistuo" is the VERB, meaning the "ACT of BELIEVING" and is translated 248 times in the KJV as "believe", "trust", and "commit". "Pistuo" means "to trust in and rely on".
--- "pistis", the misunderstood NOUN for "faith", used 244 times in the New Testament, means not the "act of believing", but "THE THINGS BELIEVED". "Pistis" is used two ways in the New Testament:
1. I find 30 times where "Pistis" is used for the Bible itself, the whole relm of Christian doctrine, when it is preceded by the article "the", as in Jude 3, where we are admonished to fight for "the faith " which was once for all delivered to the saints.
2. The remaining 214 uses of "pistis" speak of personal faith, the "things believed", God's Word permanently resident in the human soul.
Now, lets look at "pistis", our personal faith, "the things believed":
--- I only find ONE way for us to acquire "faith" in the New Testament, Rom 10:17, "so then faith (cometh) by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God". One way only, from hearing, reading, or being taught the Word of God. It cannot be "worked up", "bought", "desired", "prayed for", or "invoked" on someone.
--- Faith is being "measured out" by God to each of His children, Rom 12:3, 1 Cor 12:9, and 2 Cor 10:15.
--- Not everyone has Biblical faith, 2 Thess 3:2, only God's children have it.
--- We are presently "being saved" by faith and it doesn't come from us, it comes from God, Eph 2:8.
--- We grow in stages or plateaus of faith, Rom 1:17, from "faith to faith".
--- In Heb 11:1 personal faith gives us "the assurance (hupostasis) of things hoped for, and the conviction (elengkhos) of things that cannot be seen. The rest of Hebrews chapter eleven is a wonderful list of Bible heros who accomplished the things they did through the Spirit of God and the Word of God resident in their souls (faith).
--- God gives us a test on the Scriptures we take in, and the testing increases our patience (endurance), Jas 1:3.
--- Do not fight against God's testing, but let it work, that we may "be perfect (mature) and wanting (lacking) nothing". Jas 1:4, 2:22 and 26.
--- The testing of our faith is more precious to God than pure gold! 1 Pet 1:7.
--- It is our "faith", God's Word resident in our soul, that enables us to live a godly, successful, Christian life in this world full of evil, 1 Jn 5:4.
--- CHRISTIAN FAITH IS NOT BLIND There is no "blind faith" in the Christian life. Abraham, in Heb 11:17-19, and Gen 22:1-19, is an excellent example:
--- Abraham only had one child, named Isaac, when his faith (noun) was tested. Isaac, you remember, was a "miracle baby", born to Abraham and Sarah long after Sarah had passed child bearing age. The name Isaac means "laughter". Abraham fell on his face and laughed when God told him he and Sarah were going to have a son.
--- Sarah did have Isaac, at age 90. She had laughed also in Gen 18:12-15, but she denied it. --- Abraham's name means "father of many nations", and God had promised him in Gen 17:17-20, that he would be the father of a great nation. But, now at this great time of testing, he has just one son, Isaac.
--- God told Abraham in Gen 22:1-18 to take his only son, Isaac, and go to a mountain in the land of Moriah, which means "chosen of Jehovah", and to sacrifice his only son as a burnt offering to the Lord. (This is an EXTREME test of Abraham's "faith").
--- Abraham has God's Word resident in his soul. As he goes to the mountain that God had pointed out, he believes that God will either provide a substitute sacrifice and spare his son Isaac, or that God will raise him from the dead:
a. In verse 5, Abraham told the young men that traveled with them "You stay here with the ass, and I AND THE LAD will go yonder and worship, AND COME AGAIN TO YOU".
b. In verses 9-14, Abraham makes a wooden altar, places his only son on it, and raises the knife to slay his only son. As his hand and knife are raised, the Angel of the Lord calls out from heaven and tells him to stop.
c. In verse 12, The Angel of the Lord says "now I know that thou fearest God, seeing that thou hast not withheld thy son" .
d. In verse 13, Abraham looks up and sees a ram caught in a thicket by his horns, and offered the ram instead of his only son as a burnt offering to the Lord. (All the offerings and sacrifices in the Old Testament spoke of Jesus and his death on the Cross as a substitutionary sacrifice for us. God DID sacrifice His only begotten Son to save us).
e. How was Abraham able to obey God in such an extreme test? He had God's Word resident in his soul! God had told him that he would be the father of many nations through his son Isaac. So, he could be confident in the face of extreme testing.
f. In verse 14, Abraham named the place "Jehovah-jireh", meaning "the Lord will provide".
The bottom line for successful Christian living: Stay in fellowship, take in God's Word, and seek to live by it. Your growing "faith" - God's Word resident in your soul - and the Spirit of God will be the strength required to live in this world filled with troubles.
When you see the word "faith" in God's Word, or hear someone say "I wish I had your faith", remember that it is a noun, and the issue is how much of God's Word is permanently resident in the soul. This is why the psalmist, in Psalms 119:11, says "Thy Word have I hid in my heart, that I might not sin against thee".
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Permalink Reply by Grace by the Lake on
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Oh dearest and most beloved brother David :D. The mans name is spelled "ARTHUR". It couldn't possibly be that you were confused about that word author because your dictionary spelled the name. Arthur wrong could it? Or may you be simply misunderstood? :):):):)
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God wants us to prosper and be in good health. Christ told us to "speak to the mountain". He didn't say to speak to God about the mountain. The Bible says 'By His stripes you were healed". We have to believe to accomplish this. We cannot allow our faith to waver. All that we are is accomplished through faith in God. He said He would never leave us or forsake us. However, we have an adversary who wants us miserable, poor, and sick. He constantly tells us how bad we are, and how worthless. Our Father tells us just the opposite. We need to stop listening to the nosy neighbor and listen to our Parent. We need to believe God.
My prayers are with you Chris and you Christine + Aslan. May the Lord richly bless you.
Rita
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Chris,
Not sure what you are asking, but will say a few words about faith. I can hear in the words of many who say they are saved, that they do not know who they are in Christ. The devil loves this as then he can keep such a person from growing. The Word tells us repeatedly who we are. We are called by God to walk by faith, so we must learn to become Word People. This simply means that when the devil puts us down, the way to handle it is to tell him what the Word says about us. If he says in our ear, you are a stupid, sinful jerk that doesn't deserve anything from God, our repsonse to that should be to level him with the Word of God! We are to speak the words of our Heavenly Father thus reminding him what the Word says about us. For ex, say I am the redeemed of the Lord, greater is He that is in me then he who is in the world, I can do ALL things through Christ which strengthens me, I am the head and not the tail etc. etc. He can not stand the Word and will wimp out for the moment. Sure, he will be back eventually, but keep blasting him with God's Word and he will see he can not decieive you with the same old lies anymore and will look for other victims..
Now when it comes to the trials and tribulations we suffer in this life, the devil knows we are going on to our just reward of Heaven, so he knows the time is short and throws one thing after another at us in this life. We are to depend fully on God. satan can not do anything to us whithout God's permission. There are many situations God does not stop, because satan has the legal right to attack us and also because He knows that by us going through different attacks of the enemy, we will grow in Him and become stronger in His Word. When Adam and Eve sinned in the garden they handed over the keys to this world to satan. But the good news is Jesus was victorious over satan and got the keys back. He said we would only have to suffer for a short time and then Heaven would be our home.
I was radically, physically healed one time in response to my faith, but I am not healed like that every time. However, in my life I have always stood on the Word and I can see where God was healing me and my family although I didn't know it at the time. We never run to the doctor or head for the pharmacy before going to God's Word. We recite by His stripes we were healed! So, most illnesses we've had are gone before they start. One time when $ was low, we were very concerned that our children might have a lot of cavities since we had not been able to afford the dentist. When God provided for us to do that, the report from the dentist was that none of the children had a single cavity--Glory halleluiah PTL! At one point, I developed a chronic illness, but God has not taken it away. Instead, I dilligently studied about it and live each day defeating it, instead of it defeating me, whereas many have died from it. When we put God first we will overcome any situation. I sometimes think that the greater healing is our steady faith delivering us from one situation after another.
The Bible says the just shall live by faith. This life is like a dress rehearsal for our future home which is Heaven. As we grow in the Word, we will be more than conquerors until we finish the race. Right now your difficult areas are finances and pain. You will be victorious in both of these areas as long as you put God and His Word first always confessing what God says about you and taking up the Sword of the Spirit. The day will come when you look back and see how far God has brought you. You may never be flowing in finances and you may never be pain-free, then again you might, but either way, you will be totally complete in Christ not lacking for anything, or making it very well on much less that you thought you needed, because God will do miracles to make your finances stretch and will either heal you or help you manage your pain. Faith is so much better then fear, doubt and unbelief. Repent and correct yourself when you speak faithless words and don't go along with others who are faithless. We are Faith People!
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Someone wrote this a while back and I enjoyed it:
Faith-
"Claiming the Promises “is not faith. Faith already has it.
"Claiming" proves that one does not have it yet .It is unbelief attempting to act like faith.
Faith says, "Thank You Father. " Faith has it. Faith has arrived .Faith stops praying and begins to praising. Unbelief quotes the Word, but does not act upon it .We call this Mental Assent..
You see, believing is acting on the Word. People do not know the Word until they begin to practice it and let it live in them .They may have had a great teacher or preacher yet it has never become part of their lives . .Using the Word and practicing it in our daily lives is the secret of faith. The word abides in you and enables God to express Himself through you .You draw on the vine-life for wisdom, love and ability. You are never without resources.
The word is the Master speaking to you .When you act on the Word, you are acting in unison with Him.You and He are lifting the load together. He is fellowshipping with you, sharing on the Word. Now we are walking with Him,realizing that His ability has become ours. EOQI thought it wqs a good word.
Hebrews 11
1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. 2This is what the ancients were commended for. 3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.
7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.
True Faith is a natural response that grows out of our abiding in Christ. Is acting on what we believe, God's word.
A FETES VIVA as Luther called it – A LIVING FAITH.
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Permalink Reply by a servant (Chris) on
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Are we hurting at times because that is what makes sense to us ?
Faith is the substance of things of things hoped for, evidence is not seen. We have two ways of seeing a thing.
A mower fell on top of me; do I say that will hurt. Or no I will "put may faith" in God. We have a choice in what do we put our faith into. Faith in God, faith in ourselves, in common sense. The thought I had I guess was "faith" is a powerful thing, we must be careful where we place our faith.
Thanks for all the input.
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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Some of the trials and persecution we face in this life are because of our faith. Some of these lead to pain. Having faith does not remove pain or exclude us from persecution. It guarantees us victory over them, not removal from them. We also must be able to rest in the truth of Romans 8:28. No matter what is happening in our lives we can trust that God will use is it for our good in the long run, even when it does not make sense to us now.
Lord Bless,
LT
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Amanda,
According to Charles G. Finney, God is under obligation to do right.
I do not like debating what someone else meant as we both could be taking his comments out of context. Overall I like Finney and have studied his life and the revivals that God did through his ministry. I don’t remember reading these comments in any of my studies of him or in books I read by him. I will try to address the specific questions as I understand the intent.
God does not do right because He is obligated. He does right because it flows from who He is and He can act in no other manner. Any obligation, of sorts, that God would be under could only be imposed by God on Himself since He is the highest standard.
So pain is God doing right?
Some pain could be God’s doing, but it will always have a purpose. Some pain is allowed, and it too has a purpose. Some pain is self inflicted.
I found this part of what Finney says interesting:
"God sends the wicked to hell for the same reason for which he takes the righteous to heaven, that is, in both cases He designs to promote the highest good. When sinners come into such relations that the highest good demands that He should send them to hell, He does so for that reason. And when the righteous come into such relations that the highest good demands that He should take them to heaven, He does so for that reason."
So people are cast into hell for their own good then?
At face value I would disagree with Finney. It is not about highest good, but God’s standard. The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life. If by highest good He means that the sin and sinner will be eradicated, then it is right to recognize that God’s righteousness and justice are being met in the act of sending sinners to eternal punishment.
Finney says: The highest good must therefore demand that He punish the wicked.
This snippet gives the impression that there is a thing called the “highest good.” I believe that this should be applied to God Himself and not simply a external standard.
So is that how we are to apply Romans 8:28? Whatever we have to go through, no matter how terrible, God is working all things together for good?
An important part of this verse is being left out or over looked. This verse is not universal to all people, but is given to those who love God. For the full verse says, “Rom 8:28 (ESV) And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.”
Finney says: God is equally good in all He does, for the best of all reasons, that He has the same ultimate reason for all He does, namely, the highest good of the universe demands it. In other words, it is right.
The highest good of the universe does not demand anything. The universe is inanimate. God does righteous and just acts simply because He is righteous and just. He does not live up to a standard, He is the standard. God is held accountable, in a sense, only because He has made promises and because of His nature He will fulfill every one of those promise.
Everything God does is right.
This is absolutely true.
Finney also says: If He send any of you to hell, all heaven will be under an obligation to praise Him for it. If He send your companions or children to hell, you will be under obligation to praise Him for it. If he send your children or even yourself to hell, you will be under an eternal obligation to praise Him for it. It will always be true that He did it because it was right, because the public good demanded it, and it was therefore his duty to do it. He did it in compliance with the great law of perfect benevolence. And shall you not praise Him for being benevolent?
The first half is true. All of God’s actions are praise worthy, including His judgment that sends people to eternal punishment. The reason He is praise worthy goes much deeper than praising Him for any particular action, but rather we are to praise Him because of who He is. He is a Holy and Just God. He does not do it because the public good demanded it, but that His justice and righteousness demanded it. He did not do it in compliance with a great law, but proceeds to act according to who He is. His actions are determined by His nature. This includes His faithfulness to any and all of His promises to mankind.
So that's something to think about. If God thinks it is best for all of His creation to cast me into Hell, how can I ever be saved anyway?
Fortunately we do not stand or fall before all creation to satisfy creation. We stand or fall before God based on the fact that we deserve death and our only remedy is Jesus Christ, the sacrificial Lamb of God. Those who are lost eternally are lost because of personal sin. Those who are saved eternally are saved because the blood of Christ has been applied to their lives and are justified in and through Jesus.
Lord Bless,
LT
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The problem with the statement "the universe demands it" is that it places the focus on something other than God, intended or not. God does not act because the universe demands it, but rather God demands it and acts always according to who He is. In Finney's era of time this wording may have had a different meaning.
Lord Bless,
LT
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