Can we lose our Salvation?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by The pilgrim on January 9, 2009 at 2:12pm

Dear LT
Thank you for the reply, sorry i can't reply fast, as i understand Sarah's question, 'if they have strayed' and i just want to give one example it is given by our Lord Jesus Himself 'the prodigal son' at the beginning he was alive and with a perfect relationship with his father then he strayed left his father home, lost, dead spiritually, I thank God he did not remain in that state he repented and became alive again.
For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' So they began to celebrate. (Luke15:24)
And in James 5:19,20 it says "19My brothers, if one of you should wander (strayed) from the truth and someone should bring him back, 20remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.
Notice how srtaying from the truth is to jeopardize the soul of the righteous person to death. But if that same person is brought back where he was before he strayed, his soul will once again be safe itn the truth.
Remain blessed.
With His love.

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on January 9, 2009 at 4:12pm

Dear Pilgrim,

We disagree on this as do many believers disagree on this subject.

The Prodigal Son:
Nowhere in the story do we see that the father disowns his son. I see just the opposite. He sees his son and runs to him. He hugs him and kisses him. He has compassion for him. All this before the son speaks a word to his father.

He was out of his father's sight, but never out of his father's heart. The story never stops calling the father his father and the son his son. Nowhere is he ever viewed less than a son. The father lost track of his son and easily could have thought him dead in that he may never see him again, thus the lost and now found. This story speaks to the depth of the love and the security of the relationship, not the loss of family position and restoration. The only one that questioned the relationship was the son, not the father.

Regarding James 5:19-20. That to is not as simple as you point out. To which type of death and to which understanding of the Greek word Psuche does the verse imply?

Death: Physical or spiritual?

Soul: Which part?
psuche (5590) denotes “the breath, the breath of life,” then “the soul,” in its various meanings. The NT uses “may be analyzed approximately as follows:
(a) the natural life of the body, Matt. 2:20; Luke 12:22; Acts 20:10; Rev. 8:9; 12:11; cf. Lev. 17:11; 2 Sam. 14:7; Esth. 8:11; (b) the immaterial, invisible part of man, Matt. 10:28; Acts 2:27; cf. 1 Kings 17:21; ( the list goes on)

The following verses speaks to the potential condition and discipline of saved man when he strays.

“Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment. When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world.” 1 Cor. 11:27-32 NIV

You read it as spiritual death, separation from God, of man that can be restored after losing salvation again and again (which is not possible). I read it as the physical death of man as the result of divine discipline (Heb 12) if the man continues on a wayward path. There are a couple other views to this verse as well.

Read Romans 5-8
Romans 5: God’s work
Romans 6-7: Our inability
Romans 8: The Holy Spirit’s work

Lord Bless,
LT

Permalink Reply by The pilgrim on January 10, 2009 at 2:30pm

Dear LT
Thank you for the reply
I wish we agree... but, we disagree, so, let us agree to disagree. I just want to reply for the last time in this matter.
Let me testify what I saw in my life.... people who where once saved but then.... not anymore, I ask my self there where not saved in the beginning? It is the same douting my own salvation!! They where saved, because i know these people well one of them is who invite me to the church for the first time, and one of them is my own cousin whom i love and still my heart goes out for him hope and pray for his return to the Father ... he was a Christian indeed not only in word i mean he was living out Christianty any one can see it clearly in his life, he was devoted, he loved the Lord so much, his life was a testemony to all around him, he served the Lord, and saw miracles happend in his own hand, even he paid high price for his fath... but every thing is was the past history .... i know the Father waits him to be return and when ever he return He will accept him ... where is now? He is still out there in the world i'm telling you the true story which i saw by my eyes.
So the point is not just start from the right place, right path but....continuing up to the end and able to finish the race.
May the Lord help every one of us to do so
May the Lord found us fathfull up to the end. Amen!!

Remain blessed.
In His love your sis.

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on January 10, 2009 at 4:26pm

Yes, we agree to disagree.

Lord Bless,
LT

Permalink Reply by Celine Greenidge on May 12, 2009 at 9:54pm

Hi,

I was reading Revelations 3: 2 - 5

It would be helpful to read from verse 2, but nevertheless verse 5 quotes:

Verse 5: "He that overcomes, the same shall be clothed in white raiment and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but will confess his name before my father and before his angels".
I was thinking that you cannot blot out a name from a book, if it wasn't written in it before. So this tells me that it is possible to lose that place in the Lamb's Book of Life. I stand open to correction.

CG

Permalink Reply by Carla on May 12, 2009 at 10:23pm

Hi Celine,

When I read that scripture I am reading it totally differently then you are.
I am reading it as 'Their names will never be erased'. It is not possible in the first place, it won't happen. Whoever has their name in the book...it is in the book and it is staying there.

This scripture backs that up:
Romans 8:37-39 and John 10:28-30

Revelation 13:8 shows clearly that some people are not written in the book of life before the world was made.

God Bless, Carla

Permalink Reply by Rob Holden on January 9, 2009 at 5:25am

My friends,

We believe scripture is inspired by the Holy Ghost, so where it seems there are contradictions—we have to reconcile them.

When it comes to the gift of salvation, we didn’t do anything to earn it but we did do something to accept it: we became a Christian—one who believes Christ as savior and repents of sin.

Becoming a Christian is akin to obtaining membership in an exclusive club. For instance, as a free gift for joining Costco, they gave me a coupon book worth hundreds of dollars in savings. But these coupons could only be redeemed inside the store. Despite the free gift, the coupons were worthless when my membership expired. While the gift itself was free, note that obtaining membership did have a cost. Likewise the gift of salvation is free—but make no mistake—becoming a Christian does have a cost:

Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.”
Matthew 16:24

One of the watered down teachings of the Western Church is the distorted place of salvation in relationship to our Christian faith. Like I stated before, our purpose is relationship—dating back to Adam & Eve. The “fruit” of that relationship is eternal life. If the relationship is severed then there is no “fruit”. The Church gets hung up on the "fruit" while overlooking the significance of relationship.

Let me emphatically make this point: if we do not posses the capacity to abandon the relationship we have with God, then we have no free will. And if we have no free will, then what God has and desires from us is not genuine or true love.

We cannot confuse the free gift of salvation with the requirements and expectations of maintaining our Christian membership. The question really isn’t “can I lose my salvation” (which is putting the buggy before the horse) but rather “can I undo my Christian membership?” I hope to answer this question conclusively below.

Let’s lay some groundwork: there are two fundamental requirements for becoming and maintaining your Christian membership:

”The time has come," he said. "The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!"
Mark 1:15

Repentance + Belief are inseparable. You cannot have one without the other. “Belief” itself is not enough. James argues this point:

”You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.”
James 2:19

Likewise living a life of obedience and repentance is required; otherwise our belief is in vain:

By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
1 Corinthians 15:2

The Western Church liberally preaches “forgiveness”, but often suppresses the prerequisite: Repentance! The act of repentance is indeed a work. Receiving forgiveness is granted to those who repent. Yet the privilege to receive forgiveness is a free and unearned gift to those who profess to be Christ's followers. This is fundamental to understanding the “perks” of our membership.

Another analogy to reinforce this point: the privilege to earn interest costs me nothing when I open up a free savings account. However I only earn interest on the money I deposit in the bank. Likewise, the privilege of forgiveness is a gift of our Christian membership, but it is only redeemed when one repents. Likewise the gift of eternal life may be redeemed by those who endure as members to the end—which I will demonstrate below.

To believe in OSAS, you have to believe it is impossible to undo your Christian membership. Yet scripture warns this happens when you become deceived; you abandon the faith under persecution; you give yourself over to sin—thus ceasing to lead a repentant lifestyle, etc. If the act of becoming a Christian guaranteed that we would never fall away, then the Bible’s abundant warnings against these pitfalls seems to be a gross overstretch.

*** Can Christians be deceived? ***
If we say no, then what do we make of all the end-time prophecies that say otherwise? And if no, then why do we need the prophecies and warnings of false prophets, the mark of the beast, anti-Christs, etc. in the first place?

The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
1 Timothy 4:1

See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.
Colossians 2:8

Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
2 Peter 3:17

Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.
1 Timothy 4:16

Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize.
Colossians 2:18

We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away.
Hebrews 2:1

Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge, which some have professed and in so doing have wandered from the faith.Grace be with you.
1 Timothy 6:20-21

But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ.
2 Corinthians 11

Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully.
2 John 1:7-8

Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith.
1 Timothy 1:18-20

*** We abandon our Christian membership when we allow sin unchecked—leading an unrepentant lifestyle***

”If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
Hebrews 10: 26-27

If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.
2 Peter 2:20-21

For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.
2 Peter 1:5-9

"But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live. Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
"But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.”
Ezekiel 18:21-24

*** It's not enough to enter the race... we must finishing and endure until the end ***

Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
Matthew 24:12-13

All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
Mark 13:13

If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
John 15:6

At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
Matthew 24:10-13

To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations
Revelation 2:26

I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown.
Revelation 3:11-12

In conclusion: I would love it if there was a built in mechanism to being a Christian that guaranteed a believer would never walk away from their faith at a future date. But I don't come away with that impression from the scriptures, thus I have to be honest with myself and with fellow believers. We distort Christianity when we focus on the "free" and "unearned" characteristic of the gifts, rather than on the responsibilities of being a member and carrying our cross.

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on January 9, 2009 at 12:58pm

Rob,

I know on your web-site you do not like to use names, but I think it is important that we and others know who we are addressing. I do not have time today to give a lengthy response to your treatise, but will make some quick comments.

1) Are you presenting that one recieves as a free gift only the right to become a child of God, but that in order for that "membership" to stay in effect one must work to keep it? If that is your stance, due to the fact that you believe salvation is a future event, you are presenting salvation solely on works. Why is that the case? You present that the gift is a free gift that enables us to be saved, thus, it is only the knowledge of the possibility, not the actuality of it. Therefore, with this knowledge, for no one without knowledge would strive to gain that which they are unaware of, one begins to earn that salvation. Based on your view you cannot mean "keep" because they ave not actually recieved it. Here is a critical dfference. Salvation is not future, but at rebirth, the culmination of it is future.
2) Many of the verses, of which you attempt to use are not related to salvation, but rather living the Christian life. The ones that do relate or appear to relate to salvation are beig used out of context. (I will address these in my future reply as time allows).
3) Most who are of the "You can lose your salvation" camp, including the guy from the website listed above, are in error regarding what we who believe you cannot lose your salvation actually believe. (I will address this later as well). I will include here that , as you like to put it, OSAS do believe in personal responsibility and carrying our cross daily, but not to earn or retain salvation.

I disagree with your position and will gladly discuss our differences. I will treat you as a brother as long as the same respect is given. May God use the discussion for our good and his glory.

Lord Bless,
LT

Permalink Reply by John on January 9, 2009 at 2:05pm

Faith in and of itself is sufficient to save us, what Christ did in and of Himself is our salvation. And if we had the time to sit down and discuss this I would say that I lean towards the ‘once saved always saved’ understanding of scripture, but not the way it has become twisted in the minds of some people wanting to justify their choices to continue on in sin. OSAS is not a free ticket that allows people to sin without consequences.

A true believer in Christ Jesus will run from sin not towards it. Yes, it is true that a true believer will sometimes stumble and or fall into sin but that is different from willfully choosing to sin.

What I have come to understand through the study of God’s Word is that a true believer will not continuously willfully choose to sin and will feel the conviction and remorse of the Holy Spirit should they happen to fall into sin.

Many people today make a profession of faith calling on the name of Jesus thinking they are saved but have no understanding of what they repented of nor how sin is an all consuming integrated part of their Adamic nature. They want things to be better in their lives, wanting Jesus to fix what is wrong, (drugs, marriage, work, money, happiness, etc.). So they ask Jesus to come into their life without understanding what sin is, its consequences, and how God views sin. Suddenly the false convert is born.

Now this is where it becomes a mystery of God’s working. Think of the parable of the sower … the seed fell on different soils; the seed reacted differently to the different soils. For those false converts sometimes a seed is planted that eventually (maybe years later) takes root. While other false converts run back to their sin. Anyway this is where I think many of today’s ‘backsliding’ word of mouth professing Christians have their troubles, thus the feeling that a person can lose their salvation, but in reality they were never saved to begin with. How can a person be saved when they have never repented of their sin?

We as humans only see things in a very small window of time. God is not bound by time, He created time. He sees everything from beginning to end, yesterday as today, tomorrow as today. And thus for us with our limited understanding we react to the outward appearance and actions of a person with relation to their salvation in a small window of time, while God sees the big picture.

This OSAS also spins into the debate that is as old as the Scriptures in: show me your faith without works and I will show you my faith through my works. Are we saved by our works? No, but faith without works is dead. The things we do and how we live our lives is evidence as whether or not we have faith and are saved. Our works become evidence of our faith, but they (works) do not save us or allow us to earn salvation. The lesser is always blessed by the greater. Even many well meaning Christians think, sometimes unconsciously, that if we do this special ministry for God then God will owe us. It doesn’t work that way, our best works are nothing but filthy rags before the throne. We confess Christ Jesus as Lord, Savior, and God with our mouth and show fruit of the Spirit through our actions in obedience to His Word. And in all that we do we are to do it for the glory of God.


I am currently living in an area of the country were just about everyone I speak with professes to be a Christian (a few exceptions). Yet when you observe their lifestyles, actions and conduct it is very hard to see any difference between them and those that don’t claim to profess Christ as Lord. You see, even thought they profess Christ and may have had some kind of ‘experience’ they do not live according to the Scriptures. Am I judging them, no, I’m just observing.

As I said eariler many people don’t understand sin, their sin, how it is personal against God, nor how God view’s sin. Some of these people who profess to be Christians were raise in a ‘Christian’ home therefore they consider themselves to be Christians. Others may have gone to church once or twice and consider themselves Christian. But, (and this is my personal opinion) what may be the biggest falsehood propagated by the church in our age are the mass crusades and local church altar calls persuading people to come forward and give their lives to Jesus for all the wrong reasons. They come forward to better their lives, wanting Jesus to fix what is wrong, (drugs, marriage, work, money, happiness, etc.). Now don’t get me wrong these are things that Jesus can help them with, but it is not the reason to go forward and ask Jesus into their lives.

So people go forward ask Jesus into their lives, creating a self-induced emotional high thinking everything is going to become better. Then what happens to these people when things in their life don’t change, they become disillusioned with the church, with Christ and return to their previous ways of living. Yet these people will still say they made a commitment to Christ that they are saved and are Christians. Because that’s what they were lead to believe.
Did they lose their salvation or were they never really saved to begin with? That may sound extreme, but it happens every day.

Christ died for our sins. Christ died for our sins. Christ died for our sins. Yet people don’t know what sin is. They may have head knowledge and know that sin is wrong, but they don’t understand the way God views sin. For many people sin is when they have done something wrong and have been caught or feel guilty for something they have done. So they ask forgiveness of God and go back to living the same way and end up sinning again, only to have to repeat the cycle. No where in scripture does it say that God is obligated to forgive anybody of their sin when asked simply because the person was caught or feels guilty. Some people like to quote 1 John 1:9 in defense, but to properly understand that verse the reader must keep it in context the 3 or 4 verses that come before. 1 John 1:9 is not a free pass to continue sinning.

Sin is breaking God’s Law and the wages of sin is death, eternal separation from God in the lake of fire. God calls sinners children of wrath. To those who willfully chose to practice sin He says depart form Me for I never knew you. You who practice lawlessness.
God hates sin, those how practice sin are condemned to God’s judgment, wrath and hell. Sin is not something that we have done, it is something we are born with in our very nature, and it saturates our very being. From the time that Adam first sinned in the garden the curse of sin has been passed on to all of humanity. A person living in sin is under the judgment of God. And there is nothing they can do in and of themselves to change that.

Therefore is not the person who goes forward asking Jesus for a better life still in bondage to sin? When did they realize their sinful nature before God? Do they realize that sin is not just something they have done, but is a part of their nature? Do they realize that there only saving grace is what Jesus did form them on the cross – atonement for their sins? No, they’ve gone forward because their marriage is falling apart, because they are about to lose their job, or because they are addicted to some type of drug.

Then you got those who know all about sin (maybe raised in the church) they’ve heard about it all their life. They can quote the ten commandments and Scripture left and right. They know what God’s word says. And for them for some reason it is like they have become desensitized to sin because they know all about it. Maybe this person struggles with habitual sins or just lives what scripture would consider a sinful life style … they know it’s wrong but just can’t break the cycle of sin no matter how hard they try. The problem is they still don’t view sin the same way that God does.

The best way I can explain the difference is like this: there is a stove top burner that is lit and red hot. The person can see the burner. The person has been told not to touch the burner because they will get hurt if they do so. They have heard stories about others who have touched the burner and the consequences. They’ve even felt its heat. They have a good knowledge of the burner and what happens when someone touches it. They know all about the burner. But still all they have is head knowledge. Once the person reaches out and actually touches the burner their understanding changes from knowing about the burner and its consequences to fully understanding its dangers. Once they touch the burner they never will want to touch it again. You see, the burner represents sin and all the warnings about the burner are like all the warning we hear about sin. But when one touches the burner the understanding they acquire is likened to coming to an understanding of how God views sin. The understanding moves from being just head knowledge to a true full understanding. The person never wants to experience the burner again. When the Holy Spirit works in us to the point where we soften our hearts and stop justifying our actions and we truly view sin the way God views sin we will never willfully desire to sin again.

Thus you have a lack of understanding sin in the church today with many people thinking they have had some kind salvation experience when they are really living their lives as false converts. It is really scary and sad to think about. So these are some of the reasons why I believe we have so many people thinking that salvation can be lost. When a person who truly has come to God for the right reasons experiences God’s Holy Spirit living working within them they will never depart from what Christ has started. For He has promised to complete the work He began in us.

This is where we must allow God to work in peoples lives according to His will not ours. For God sees the big picture from beginning to end and the lessons and works He does in an individual are not always for our understanding or in our timing.



Quote:
________________________________________
regarding OSAS..two specific questions always comes to mind....

according to OSAS, if one cannot lose their salvation or place then who are the ones that go apostate? (apostasy means to fall from something ..to lose what one had, to go astray)

there are constant warnings in scripture to keep oneself from falling away etc... so then..if once saved always saved...then why the warnings???
________________________________________


Okay let’s consider the parable of the sower (Matt 13:1-23) … the seed (Word of God – gospel) falls on different types of ground hard, rocky, thorny, and good soil. Three of them have a response to the gospel – seed taking root. And what are we told? Only one where the seed feel on good soil did it produce a crop. The others all showed outward signs of being healthy, but do to various reasons died off.

As Christians we are no longer under bondage to sin, but we are not immune to it. We need to keep watch. We are to work are salvation out with fear and trembling. All of us are subjected to various temptations everyday.

James 1:13 – 16 “Let no one say when he is tempted, ‘I am being tempted by God’; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He himself does not tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death. Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.

What we see here is James talking to the brethren in Jerusalem and is addressing the issue of temptation. God does not tempt us – temptation does not come from God. God may give us choices, but He does not tempt us. Also, temptation in and of itself is not sin. We may make a choice to give in to that temptation. Then and only then does it become sin. And the wages of sin is death (unrepented sin). We are told not to become confused as to who is tempting us.

1 Cor 10:13 “No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, that you may be able to endure it.

Here Paul is addressing the church in Corinth and he too is addressing the perils of temptation. Notice Paul states that God is faithful and will not allow us to tempted beyond what we are able and that God will provide away of escape. What is interesting is that it does not say that God will keep us from sinning, but rather He provides a way of escape. We still have to choose not to give in to the temptation there will always be a way out … if we choose it. Again temptation is not sin, but when we give in to it then it becomes sin. And the wages of sin is death (unrepented sin). It is a choice we have to make – serve God or not. The more I read through scripture the more I see that there are only two types of ‘will,’ “God’s will” and the “will of the sinful nature” – man has the ability to choose which “will” to follow, but there are only two wills. A true Christian can not say ‘No, Lord.’ Each word nullifies the other.

We are given all these warnings to safeguard our salvation because the evil one is constantly on the prowl and would love to snatch us out of the Fathers hand if it were possible. Therefore, he would love to see a true believer fall into the web of sin.

As far as the apostate … keep in mind the parable of the sower and the different seeds … let’s look at Matt 7:13 – 21 Jesus speaking:

13 “Enter in by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide, and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter by it.
14 For the gate is small, and the way is narrow that leads to life, and few are those who find it.
15 Beware the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
16 You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes, nor are figs from thistles, are they?
17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit; but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 So then, you will know them by their fruits.
21 Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me on that day, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophecy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?”
And then I will say to them, I never knew you; depart from Me, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.

Many people think that verses 13 & 14 are speaking of those seeking, but from how it is presented in context with the other verses it appears to be speaking to those within the church. Today many people think they are saved because they made some sort of claim of faith. Many have been misled by preachers preaching a different gospel, a half gospel. So people have come to Jesus for the wrong reasons. They go through all the motions, talk the talk and walk the walk, but they are doing it on their own power and emotions. (I think >) this is the apostate church those who make a claim and think they are saved, in the end give in to the temptations of the world, different false doctrines of scripture, and misled by fleshly world pleasing people who have been given the title of preacher or minister. (Based on what I see going on in the world today this passage really speaks to it.)

True believers those who truly seek after God and study His Word do not fall into this.

There are other examples from scripture that come to mind such as the parable of the dragnet, and the sheep and the goats.

Permalink Reply by The pilgrim on January 9, 2009 at 2:41pm

Hi dear Rob,
I totally agree with you again and well sayed, thank you for posting this.
May the Lord bless you abundantly.
Remain blessed.
In His love.

Permalink Reply by Rob Holden on January 10, 2009 at 3:15am

LT,

Actually on CN we do use names—we just can’t call people names. :)

>>Are you presenting that one recieves as a free gift only the right to become a child of God, but that in order for that "membership" to stay in effect one must work to keep it?

Not quite. Rather we become a child of God (by adoption) at the moment we become a Christian—one who repents and believes. And yes, in order for this relationship to last one must work to sustain it—just as it takes effort to sustain your marriage.

>> If that is your stance, due to the fact that you believe salvation is a future event, you are presenting salvation solely on works. Why is that the case? You present that the gift is a free gift that enables us to be saved, thus, it is only the knowledge of the possibility, not the actuality of it. Therefore, with this knowledge, for no one without knowledge would strive to gain that which they are unaware of, one begins to earn that salvation. Based on your view you cannot mean "keep" because they ave not actually recieved it. Here is a critical dfference. Salvation is not future, but at rebirth, the culmination of it is future.

Regardless if salvation is instant or an event in the future is trivial to the larger point: salvation is secondary to the relationship.

Before eternal life over death was achieved through Christ’s work on the cross (30 A.D.), men still maintained relationship with God. To them Christ’s salvation was indeed a future (and prophesied) event—shall we then question the motives of their faith?

I wont, because it’s not about the gift, it’s about the giver. If Christ had not come yet, would you and me still strive for relationship with God today? I would hope so.

Our sin has put a wedge in between us and God. Since the Fall, belief and repentance have always been necessary requirements to sustain our relationship with him—just as we have responsibilities to sustain our marriages. That necessity remains today, but our focus has been transferred to Christ.

Nurturing the relationship has always, and should always remain our focus. “Salvation” is just a mechanism which provides for the relationship to last through all eternity.

If God wasn’t interested in continuing our relationship in heaven, there would be no salvation. Likewise, we should only want salvation if we desire relationship with God. Salvation is worthless to those who do not want relationship with God. Likewise eternal relationship is not applicable to those who fail to uphold their responsibilities--by ceasing to believe through deception or persecution or ceasing to repent by giving themselves over to sin.

Therefore, “the gift of eternal relationship” is given freely to those who maintain relationship with Christ: which requires repentance and belief.

>> Many of the verses, of which you attempt to use are not related to salvation, but rather living the Christian life. The ones that do relate or appear to relate to salvation are beig used out of context. (I will address these in my future reply as time allows).

When one reads the dozens of scriptural evidences I provided, it’s easy to conclude from a straightforward reading the clear message of the text: (a) avoid sin so you do not fall away, (b) avoid deception so you wont be led astray, and (c) remain strong and endure persecution until the end. This is the message of our New Testament. The more I read it the more I see it.

In fact I’ll add a couple more verses to the list with the same message:

See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God.
Heb. 3:12

Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
2 Thes. 2:3

We must be honest with ourselves and ask: as believers, if we are incapable of deception, incapable of giving ourselves over to sin, and incapable of denying our faith under persecution, why then are so many verses warnings us otherwise? What’s are the warnings for?

It seems to me that in order to reach a different conclusion requires having to weave and dance around the simple message of the text.

However, I encourage you my brother to do your diligence on these passages. I pray if what I speak is truth, then you will see it to.

>>I disagree with your position and will gladly discuss our differences. I will treat you as a brother as long as the same respect is given. May God use the discussion for our good and his glory.

Likewise.

Your bro,

Rob

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on January 10, 2009 at 6:14am

Hey Rob,

>>>Not quite. Rather we become a child of God (by adoption) at the moment we become a Christian—one who repents and believes. And yes, in order for this relationship to last one must work to sustain it—just as it takes effort to sustain your marriage.

Adoption in the time of Jesus was a complete removal of ones history. If you were a murderer or thief and were adopted into a family you lose your previous name and life and gain the new name and start fresh. What a great illustration for us a Christians. Our views differ. It is God’s work to keep us through the blood of Christ.

1TH 5:23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.

Sin can hinder many things in the believer’s life. It can cause us to be disciplined (Heb. 12) it can cost us His blessings and can cause us to lose our usability, but does not cost us our position as family members. God’s covenant with the Jews is both conditional and unconditional. The Covenant with Abraham does not depend on Abraham, but on God. The Israelites failed repeatedly, yet never were they, nor are they today not God’s chosen. God disciplined them and restored them to their land, gave them freedom from oppression, etc, but not once did they ever cease to be His chosen people.

You probably will not believe this, but I will state it anyway. My marriage does not require effort to sustain it. We made vows “till death do us part.” My marriage requires effort in order for it to be the best it can possibly be, not to keep it, but to enhance it.

I do not work to keep my relationship with God. I serve Him out of love with the desire for it to be the best it possibly can be. Sin can hinder the relationship, but never break it.

.>>> Regardless if salvation is instant or an event in the future is trivial to the larger point: salvation is secondary to the relationship.

I do not see the point as trivial. Eternal relationship is only possible through salvation. It is not secondary, but integral to the whole of the teaching.

>>> Before eternal life over death was achieved through Christ’s work on the cross (30 A.D.), men still maintained relationship with God. To them Christ’s salvation was indeed a future (and prophesied) event—shall we then question the motives of their faith?

God’s covenant with the Israelites has to be understood in order to apply this to their view. The church is not Israel. Even with that said there is a major change in the relationship:
COL 1:21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation-- 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant. :24 Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church. 25 I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness-- 26 the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the saints. 27 To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Peter in Acts 2 is speaking to the Jews about their need for the Savior

AC 2:37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?" 38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call."

The relationship did not secure salvation, salvation secures the relationship.

>>> Our sin has put a wedge in between us and God. Since the Fall, belief and repentance have always been necessary requirements to sustain our relationship with him—just as we have responsibilities to sustain our marriages. That necessity remains today, but our focus has been transferred to Christ.

In the O.T. the sacrifice was to be offered again and again, for it had no lasting effect. Jesus is that eternal sacrifice. And, brother, understand on principle we hardily agree. I preach that salvation is not our goal. I preach that heaven is not our goal. Our goal is the Father Himself. We differ on our understanding regarding belief and repentance.

Salvation and relationship are impossible without belief or repentance. You believe that one can stop believing. I believe that once that true knowledge is internalized that it cannot cease to ever be true to you. I cannot UN-believe that which the Holy Spirit has revealed and I embraced at salvation. Regarding repentance, too often this word is wrongly defined. Repentance in the Greek does not simply mean turning from sin and turning to God. It literally means a “Change of mind.” At salvation my belief was secured and my mind was changed. I cannot undo this. I can choose to be disobedient, but that does not change my faith, nor does it change my mind, for even in sin we are convicted by the Holy Spirit (John 16:8-11).

My faith and eternal repentance is secured through the cross. The rest of my life is not working to keep that which I cannot lose, but rather to please the One Who loves me, my Father in heaven. The motivation to live the Christian life is love, not fear of losing our position.

Let me ask a question. Are you a child of God today? Think before you answer. If salvation is future and 2 Cor. 5:17 is future then what has changed that would enable you to be called a child of God? For no one is a child of God until they accept Christ. All are created in His image, but are not children of God. If this conversion of 2 Cor. 5:17 has occurred, then how can one be a child of God and then not a child of God only to be a child of God again. Even Israel did not go through such loss of position, but rather through divine discipline, for remnant was always preserved.

Summary of our difference: You see them as necessary to sustain. I see them as essential to initiate. You believe on can fall away and lose them. I feel that in them we are changed and secured forever by the work of God, not man.

Let’s keep clear the things we do agree on (I believe we agree on). We both are focused on the same goal in the end. The question is whether along the way someone may cross the line and cease to be a child of God. If one is truly loving Jesus and seeking to please the Father the line will never be an issue regardless of one’s stance on this issue.

>>> Nurturing the relationship has always, and should always remain our focus. “Salvation” is just a mechanism which provides for the relationship to last through all eternity.

We agree on the relationship being our true focus. I see it as after salvation truly attainable. You see salvation as a mechanism. I see it as a two part event. 1) Jesus death on the cross is God providing the eternal forgiveness for all who will believe. 2) Our surrender to Him as guided by His Word and Spirit bring the new birth in Christ. Spiritually at salvation we are changed fully, yet only infants. The flesh awaits the change at the resurrection. Because of these two forces (Romans 5-8) the rest of our life is a battle over the mind. The carnal flesh and the changed sprit are at war within. Paul illustrates this clearly in my opinion.

>>> If God wasn’t interested in continuing our relationship in heaven, there would be no salvation. Likewise, we should only want salvation if we desire relationship with God. Salvation is worthless to those who do not want relationship with God. Likewise eternal relationship is not applicable to those who fail to uphold their responsibilities--by ceasing to believe through deception or persecution or ceasing to repent by giving themselves over to sin.

We agree in part. I whole heartedly agree with the first two sentences. It is the rest that I disagree with. What responsibility does God require of me to retain my salvation? Again we come to a crossroad. You believe one can cease to believe, or can forfeit salvation if they succumb to persecution. Oft people point to Peter. Did Peter ever cease to be a disciple of Jesus even when he denied Him? That means that Peter internally stopped loving Jesus and forgot all he knew about Jesus. Or, did he succumb to the pressure and cave in and did he not experience great sorrow over his weakness.

>>> Therefore, “the gift of eternal relationship” is given freely to those who maintain relationship with Christ: which requires repentance and belief.

We have some significant differences here. The gift of salvation brings eternal relationship. You see it as requiring a work that I see only God capable of securing in us. Belief, caused by God, and repentance, caused by God, comes as we surrender to Christ and receive salvation. Salvation opens up the eternal relationship and we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit to indwell us for as stated in Scripture:

EPH 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.

You believe that salvation is a gift, but requires works to keep it. I believe we are saved by grace and maintained by grace. Your faith is in your works (as I read you) to keep you saved in that relationship eternally. I see is by God’s grace, and not of myself, that I am kept once I have entered in.

>>>When one reads the dozens of scriptural evidences I provided, it’s easy to conclude from a straightforward reading the clear message of the text: (a) avoid sin so you do not fall away, (b) avoid deception so you wont be led astray, and (c) remain strong and endure persecution until the end. This is the message of our New Testament. The more I read it the more I see it.

I repeat my previous answer: Many of the verses, of which you attempt to use, are not related to salvation, but rather living the Christian life. The ones that do relate or appear to relate to salvation are being used out of context. (I will address these in my future reply as time allows).

As you encourage me to investigate these things, I simply ask that God reveal the truth to all of us.

Till next time.

Lord Bless,
LT

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