Can we lose our Salvation?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Larry on January 27, 2009 at 1:53pm

We must be able to give it up or Heb 6:4-7 couldn't be true.

Larry

Permalink Reply by Larry on January 28, 2009 at 9:16am

I see no indication the writer of Hebrews is worried that the readers will only revert back to Judiasm. But even so, it's clear that they have no way to regain their salvation once they "turn away from their faith".

In 6:9, the writer is excluding the readers as being those who have "turned away from their faith", not all people.

Relative to speaking of religious faith as opposed to salvation (although I have difficulty separating the two in my mind), it must be salavtion for she writes "... those who have been once for all enlightened, who have conciously tasted the heavenly gift, and have become sharers of the Holy Spirit ...". How can that not be referring to salvation?

Larry

Permalink Reply by Larry on January 27, 2009 at 1:52pm

John 10:29-30 tells us no one can take us from our salvation. It does not address our free-will to give it up.

Larry

Permalink Reply by Carla on January 27, 2009 at 2:22pm

This conversation seems to be going in circles a bit... It seems to me that if anyone truly knows the Lord, they would not choose to turn away from Him.

These verses come to mind:
Pro 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, [so] a fool returneth to his folly
and...
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog [is] turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Jhn 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

those who are born again are born of the Spirit
Romans 8:9
9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

and
1 Corinthians 12:13 (NIV)
13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.


Romans 8:38–39 (NIV)
38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

It would seem that if we are truly born of the Spirit, we are neither dogs nor fools.
God help us! If we claim anything else, it would seem that we are going against God's Word.

Love in Christ, Carla

Permalink Reply by Ginnybee on January 27, 2009 at 3:55pm

Carla,

That is precisely the point (saved individuals still "go against God's Word" at times). We are born of the Spirit, yet continue to commit sins..no one can say they absolutely will never sin again. Therefore, if we continue possessing such free will that we are still cabable of sinning, what's to prove that we do not continue to hold such free will that would allow us to choose non-repentance, which in turn is committing an unforgivable act of denying faith in Jesus Christ. In addition to that, I know that I was filled with the Holy Spirit when I was still very young; yet, I might be considered a fool, or a dog because I can look into my past (while I was filled) and see that I committed many distinct sins a multiple number of times. Does that mean I was not actually filled with the Spirit, as I believed? The fact is that God blesses us with free will, which gives us capacity to commit sins, even after we've been saved. Therefore, how is it that we can still hold the capacity to commit sin after we become saved, but do not hold that same free-will to an extent that would allow us to give up our salvation through choosing not to repent (denial of Jesus)?

An early thank you for your response to this question :) I praise God for your loving contributions! So, thank you :)

Lovingly,
Ginnyb

Permalink Reply by Carla on January 27, 2009 at 5:14pm

Hi Ginny,

Great question...

you haved asked:
Therefore, how is it that we can still hold the capacity to commit sin after we become saved,
answer:
because we still live in a fallen world.

Romans chapter 6 talks about continuing to live in sin.--too long to post here, but here is Romans 6:1,2
Rom 6:1 Well then, should we keep on sinning so that God can show us more and more kindness and forgiveness?
Rom 6:2 Of course not! Since we have died to sin, how can we continue to live in it?

Romans 7 says this:
Rom 7:23 But there is another law at work within me that is at war with my mind. This law wins the fight and makes me a slave to the sin that is still within me.
Rom 7:24 Oh, what a miserable person I am! Who will free me from this life that is dominated by sin? [fn]
Rom 7:25 Thank God! The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord. So you see how it is: In my mind I really want to obey God's law, but because of my sinful nature I am a slave to sin.

We are saved by faith

Gal 2:16 And yet we Jewish Christians know that we become right with God, not by doing what the law commands, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be accepted by God because of our faith in Christ--and not because we have obeyed the law. For no one will ever be saved by obeying the law."*

also..

Rom 4:5 But people are declared righteous because of their faith, not because of their work.
Rom 4:6 King David spoke of this, describing the happiness of an undeserving sinner who is declared to be righteous:
Rom 4:7 "Oh, what joy for those whose disobedience is forgiven, whose sins are put out of sight.
Rom 4:8 Yes, what joy for those whose sin is no longer counted against them by the Lord." [fn]


The rest of your question:

but do not hold that same free-will to an extent that would allow us to give up our salvation through choosing not to repent (denial of Jesus)?
Could you really see this happening? I can't!....It would stand to reason that person did not belong to the Lord in the first place. We are saved by faith...faith produces obedience and true repentance...and a desire to please God and live for Him, out of a sense of Love and Devotion...not a sense of duty!.. If we say that faith is not enough for our permanent salvation, we are saying that Christ dying on the cross was not sufficient.

So...to keep it simple---
Do you have faith in Christ that He died for you to cleanse you from all your sin? Is He your Savior? Do you believe the work of Jesus is enough? If so, then your life will produce fruit.. Gal 5:22, and you will be obedient. You will desire to do works for Him...because you Love Him, and you want to please Him. You will make mistakes, but you are always drawn back to repentance and to God's Love... Nothing can ever separate you from God's Love.

When you left the Lord as a youngster....you still came back ..Right?
If a person does not come back to God..then they likely never knew HIM.

Blessings, Carla

Permalink Reply by Ginnybee on January 27, 2009 at 8:27pm

Hi Carla,

Yes, to answer, I do believe those things, and yes, I have been drawn back from where I was. Although, I must confess that it wasn't completely due to my desire to obey God. Frankly, at the time, I would have preferred to stay where I was at because I felt a certain amount of safety in sticking with my own preferences. It was out of fear that I returned. Fear of losing my eternal salvation and possibly being condemned to the pits of hell is what forced me to get back on the right path. Without such fear, I'm not sure I would have gathered enough courage to make the changes that I did. Therefore, I think fear of God's wrath is vitally important to staying in the will of God. Complacency is dangerous, I think.

Lovingly,
Ginnyb

Permalink Reply by Carla on January 27, 2009 at 9:19pm

Hi Ginny....

It is a Reverent Fear...not a fearful fear! It is an enormous Respect and Worship and Awe for the One and Only True God!

The bible says this:
Hebrews 12:28–29 (NIV)
28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, 29 for our “God is a consuming fire.”

in proverbs it is this:
Proverbs 1:7 (NIV)
7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge,
but fools despise wisdom and discipline.

Hebrews 12:5-11
5 And you have forgotten that word of encouragement that addresses you as sons: “My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
6 because the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son.”
7 Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? 8 If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons. 9 Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live! 10 Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness. 11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

We are to Fear the Lord by Respecting Him, submitting to Him, and Worshipping Him in Awe. IT is a reverent Fear.

In Hebrews 13:5, we learn that God will never leave us nor forsake us.

Our God is a God of Wrath, and of Love. He is Soveriegn, Holy and Perfect! I encourage you receive His Great Love..as He calls us 'Beloved.'

1Cr 15:56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.

1Cr 15:57 But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Cr 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

Here is a video by Paul Washer...


We are told to examine ourselves..

2Cr 13:5 Examine yourselves to see if your faith is really genuine. Test yourselves. If you cannot tell that Jesus Christ is among you, [fn] it means you have failed the test.
2Cr 13:6 I hope you recognize that we have passed the test and are approved by God.

Forgive me if I have just rattled on...
Blessings, Carla

Permalink Reply by Ginnybee on January 28, 2009 at 10:41am

Thank you Carla. You have been helpful. What you've shared with me makes sense. I believe it's like this. Reverent fear is a fear that pulls us close due to the subject's magnificence, and fearful fear is a fear that pushes us back away due to the subject's terrific unpleasantness. Also, you are saying that God disciplines us when we do sin by allowing us to experience the effects, or consequences of our actions without his helpful intervention, but does not erase our names from the book of life for leading an unrepentant lifestyle for a time. Right? Thanks again :)

Be blessed,
GB

Permalink Reply by Carla on January 28, 2009 at 11:11am

Hi Ginny, Your welcome.... I just want to say this, Let us not take God's Grace for granted.

Gal 2:20 I myself no longer live, but Christ lives in me. So I live my life in this earthly body by trusting in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21 I am not one of those who treats the grace of God as meaningless. For if we could be saved by keeping the law, then there was no need for Christ to die.

Jesus says:
Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Mar 1:16 Now as he walked by the sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and Andrew his brother casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers.
Mar 1:17 And Jesus said unto them, Come ye after me, and I will make you to become fishers of men.
Mar 1:18 And straightway they forsook their nets, and followed him.

Ginny, I would advise against living an unrepent lifestyle as a follower of Christ. He does not leave that option open to us.

I hope this clears things up.
Blessings, Carla

Permalink Reply by Ginnybee on January 28, 2009 at 1:17pm

Hi Carla,

I just want to point out that I am not under the belief that my salvation is in any jeopardy as for now. I repent daily and know that the Spirit lives in me. That is not in question. I was just intrigued by the question of whether or not any person, in general, can lose..or give up...their salvation because it's something I've wondered about.

Furthermore, I'm not sure that feverent fear and fearful fear are any differrent. I mean, don't they kind of go hand in hand. When we are pushed away from one direction, we can also perceive it as being pulled in the other, and visa versa. And sinse I've given your previous response some more thought, I recognize that it was not the fear of experiencing hell that was the ultimate decision maker for me. It was actually just as you mentioned. I longed to feel God's loving presece so much that I couln't stand to disappoint him any longer. Therefore, you have sincerely enlightened me, and I thank you once again :)

In Love,
GB

Permalink Reply by Carla on January 28, 2009 at 1:59pm

Hi Ginny,

I am happy to know that you have received your answers..

Here is a post from www. gotquestions.org regarding Fear and Fear of the Lord according to God's Word.

Question: "What does the Bible say about fear?"

Answer: The Bible has quite a bit to say about fear. In fact it mentions two specific types of fear. The first type is beneficial and is to be encouraged. The second type is a detriment and is to be not only discouraged, but overcome. The first type of fear is fear of the Lord. This type of fear is not necessarily fear that means to be afraid of something. Rather it is a reverential awe of God; a reverence for His power and glory. However, it is also proper respect for His wrath and anger. In other words, it is a total acknowledgement of all that God is which comes through knowing Him and all His attributes.

Fear of the Lord brings with it many blessings and benefits. In Psalm 111:10 it says, “The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; all who follow his precepts have good understanding. To him belongs eternal praise.” And in Proverbs 1:7 it says, “The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and discipline.” Thus we see how both wisdom and knowledge begin with fear of the Lord.

Furthermore, in Proverbs 19:23 it says, “The fear of the LORD leads to life: Then one rests content, untouched by trouble.” And again in Proverbs 14:27, “The fear of the LORD is a fountain of life, turning a man from the snares of death.” And Proverbs 14:26 states, “He who fears the LORD has a secure fortress, and for his children it will be a refuge.” In these verses we see that fear of the Lord provides life, security for your children, protection from evil, confidence, and satisfaction.

Thus one can see how fear of the Lord should be encouraged.

However, the second type of fear mentioned in the Bible is not beneficial and should be not only discouraged but overcome. This is the “spirit of fear” mentioned in 2 Timothy 1:7 where it says, “For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind” (NKJV). Thus we see right from the beginning that this “spirit of fear” does not come from God.

However, sometimes we are afraid, sometimes this “spirit of fear” overcomes us, and to overcome this fear we need to trust in and love God completely. First John 4:18 tells us, “There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.” However, no one is perfect, and God knows this. So He has liberally sprinkled encouragement against fear throughout the Bible. Beginning in the Book of Genesis and continuing throughout the Book of Revelations God tells us to “Fear not.”

For example, Isaiah 41:10 encourages us “'Do not fear, for I am with you; Do not anxiously look about you, for I am your God I will strengthen you, surely I will help you, Surely I will uphold you with My righteous right hand.” And again in Daniel 10:12, the angel of the Lord encourages Daniel: “Then he continued, ‘Do not be afraid, Daniel. Since the first day that you set your mind to gain understanding and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to them.’” And in the New Testament Jesus says, “So don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows” (Matthew 10:31). Just these few verses cover many different types of fear. God tells us not to be afraid of being alone, of being too weak, of not being heard, and not to be afraid for our physical necessities. And these admonishments continue throughout the Bible covering the many different aspects of the “spirit of fear.”

However, these “do not be afraid’s” are dependent upon our ability to put our trust and faith in the Lord. In Psalm 56:11 the psalmist writes, “in God I trust; I will not be afraid. What can man do to me?” This is an awesome testimony to the power of trusting in God. What the psalmist is saying is that regardless of what happens, he will trust in God. This is the key to overcoming fear, then, is total and complete trust in God.

Trusting God is a refusal to give into fear. It is a turning to God even in the darkest times and trusting in Him to make things right. This trust comes from knowing God and knowing that He is a good God who only wants to give His children good things. It is as Job said when he was experiencing some of the most difficult trials recorded in the Bible, “Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him (Job 13:15 NKJV).”

Once we have learned to put our trust in God, we will no longer be afraid of the things that come against us. We will be like the psalmist and, “…let all those rejoice who put their trust in You; Let them ever shout for joy, because You defend them; Let those also who love Your name Be joyful in You" (Psalm 5:11).

*******

Blessings and Love in Christ, Carla

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