Can Jesus be a fictitious character?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on December 31, 2009 at 3:43pm

Thomas,

Regarding your basic question of whether Jesus was a ficticious person and who He is there are three really good books that outline these topics well.

The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel
Evidence that demands a Verdict by Josh McDowell
Beyond Belief to Conviction by Josh McDowell

Both authors were skeptics that sought to prove Christianity false. Through their journey they discovered that Jesus is real and who He says He is. Both use Scripture, science and history in their works as well as seeking out respected authorities on the various related topics..

Time being limited at the moment I will only add that no credible historian, Christian or secular, deny that Jesus lived. There is too much historical evidence for one to come to any other logical conclusion.

Lord Bless,
LT

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on December 31, 2009 at 4:02pm

Thomas,

Also the following link relating to this subject is found on allaboutgod.com.

http://www.allaboutjesuschrist.org/jesus-myth-faq.htm

Lord Bless,
LT

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Thomas L J Faulkner on December 31, 2009 at 5:41pm

Thank you.

Still, I am concerned about Jewish beliefs. I have researched why Jews don't believe in Jesus, and this site seemed to offer some convincing arguments: http://whatjewsbelieve.org/

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Carla on January 1, 2010 at 12:30pm

Dear Thomas,

These Old Testament Scriptures may be of help to you also... God promises that when we seek Him with our whole hearts we will find Him.
Deu 4:29 From there you will search again for the LORD your God. And if you search for him with all your heart and soul, you will find him.

OT- Prophesies

Jesus Nature Would Be Full of the Holy Spirit

Isaiah 11:1-2
And there shall come forth a shoot out of the stock of Jesse, and a branch out of his roots shall bear fruit. And the Spirit of Jehovah shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of Jehovah.

Isaiah 42:1-4
Behold, my servant, whom I uphold; my chosen, in whom my soul delighteth: I have put my Spirit upon him; he will bring forth justice to the Gentiles. He will not cry, nor lift up his voice, nor cause it to be heard in the street. A bruised reed will he not break, and a dimly burning wick will he not quench: he will bring forth justice in truth. He will not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set justice in the earth; and the isles shall wait for his law.

Isaiah 61:1-2a
The Spirit of the Lord Jehovah is upon me; because Jehovah hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; to proclaim the year of Jehovah's favor,

Jesus Nature Would Be Humble

Zechariah 9:9-10
Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy king cometh unto thee; he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, even upon a colt the foal of an ass. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem; and the battle bow shall be cut off; and he shall speak peace unto the nations: and his dominion shall be from sea to sea, and from the River to the ends of the earth.

Jesus Nature Would Be Gentle

Isaiah 42:1-4
Behold, my servant, whom I uphold; my chosen, in whom my soul delighteth: I have put my Spirit upon him; he will bring forth justice to the Gentiles. He will not cry, nor lift up his voice, nor cause it to be heard in the street. A bruised reed will he not break, and a dimly burning wick will he not quench: he will bring forth justice in truth. He will not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set justice in the earth; and the isles shall wait for his law.

Jesus Nature Would Have a Unique Relationship with God

Psalm 16:1-11
Preserve me, O God; for in thee do I take refuge. O my soul, thou hast said unto Jehovah, Thou art my Lord: I have no good beyond thee. As for the saints that are in the earth, They are the excellent in whom is all my delight. Their sorrows shall be multiplied that give gifts for another god: Their drink-offerings of blood will I not offer, Nor take their names upon my lips. Jehovah is the portion of mine inheritance and of my cup: Thou maintainest my lot. The lines are fallen unto me in pleasant places; Yea, I have a goodly heritage. I will bless Jehovah, who hath given me counsel; Yea, my heart instructeth me in the night seasons. I have set Jehovah always before me: Because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved. Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth; My flesh also shall dwell in safety. For thou wilt not leave my soul to Sheol; Neither wilt thou suffer thy holy one to see corruption. Thou wilt show me the path of life: In thy presence is fulness of joy; In thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

Jesus Nature Would Be the Son of God

Psalm 2:7-12
I will tell of the decree: Jehovah said unto me, Thou art my son; This day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I will give thee the nations for thine inheritance, And the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; Thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. Now therefore be wise, O ye kings: Be instructed, ye judges of the earth. Serve Jehovah with fear, And rejoice with trembling. Kiss the son, lest he be angry, and ye perish in the way, For his wrath will soon be kindled. Blessed are all they that take refuge in him.

Proverbs 30:4
Who hath ascended up into heaven, and descended? Who hath gathered the wind in his fists? Who hath bound the waters in his garment? Who hath established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou knowest?

Jesus Nature Would Be the Good Shepherd

Zechariah 11:1-17

Open thy doors, O Lebanon, that the fire may devour thy cedars. Wail, O fir-tree, for the cedar is fallen, because the goodly ones are destroyed: wail, O ye oaks of Bashan, for the strong forest is come down. A voice of the wailing of the shepherds! for their glory is destroyed: a voice of the roaring of young lions! for the pride of the Jordan is laid waste. Thus said Jehovah my God: Feed the flock of slaughter; whose possessors slay them, and hold themselves not guilty; and they that sell them say, Blessed be Jehovah, for I am rich; and their own shepherds pity them not. For I will no more pity the inhabitants of the land, saith Jehovah; but, lo, I will deliver the men every one into his neighbor's hand, and into the hand of his king; and they shall smite the land, and out of their hand I will not deliver them. So I fed the flock of slaughter, verily the poor of the flock. And I took unto me two staves; the one I called Beauty, and the other I called Bands; and I fed the flock. And I cut off the three shepherds in one month; for my soul was weary of them, and their soul also loathed me. Then said I, I will not feed you: that which dieth, let it die; and that which is to be cut off, let it be cut off; and let them that are left eat every one the flesh of another. And I took my staff Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the peoples. And it was broken in that day; and thus the poor of the flock that gave heed unto me knew that it was the word of Jehovah. And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my hire; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my hire thirty pieces of silver. And Jehovah said unto me, Cast it unto the potter, the goodly price that I was prized at by them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them unto the potter, in the house of Jehovah. Then I cut asunder mine other staff, even Bands, that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel. And Jehovah said unto me, Take unto thee yet again the instruments of a foolish shepherd. For, lo, I will raise up a shepherd in the land, who will not visit those that are cut off, neither will seek those that are scattered, nor heal that which is broken, nor feed that which is sound; but he will eat the flesh of the fat sheep, and will tear their hoofs in pieces. Woe to the worthless shepherd that leaveth the flock! the sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.

********************************

The apostles were all jewish, and they had supreme scriptural Old Testament knowledge and understanding. They also lived with Jesus and developed a personal relationship with Him...which He calls us to today, and desires to have with each one of us. They also memorized the Torah because in those days (as far as I understand) it was not written in one book, people did not have their own copies... The writings of the Old Testament were individually distributed among households, so that as part of their fellowship time they would come together to share the Old Testaments writings. It was important that they memorize the scriptures because they didn't each have their own copies. They would have had a full understanding of the OT prophesies indicationg that Jesus is the Messiah.

2 Corinthians 3 describes the Old Covenant (the law) vs The New Covenant (saved by faith..God's Grace)... The jewish people who did not (and do not) believe had (and have) a Spiritual blindness (eyes are covered by a veil)2Cr 3:14 But the people's minds were hardened, and even to this day whenever the old covenant is being read, a veil covers their minds so they cannot understand the truth. And this veil can be removed only by believing in Christ. 2Cr 3:15 Yes, even today when they read Moses' writings, their hearts are covered with that veil, and they do not understand.

Verse 16 says this "2Cr 3:16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, then the veil is taken away".

Alot of what you read in the New Testament of Jesus' words...He was quoting from the Old Testament. Study the Old Testament as well as the New... You will be blessed, and your faith will increase.

May God bless your journey as you know Him more.

In Him, Carla

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Carla on January 1, 2010 at 12:46pm

Hi Thomas,

I went to the site that you posted...

This is their opening statement:

IN SHORT... Christians identify Messiah with Jesus and define him as God incarnated as a man, and believe he died for the sins of humanity as a blood sacrifice. This means that one has to accept the idea that one person's death can atone for another person's sins. However, this is opposed to what the Bible says in Deuteronomy 24:26, "Every man shall be put to death for his own sin," which is also expressed in Exodus 32:30-35, and Ezekiel 18. The Christian idea of the messiah also assumes that God wants, and will accept, a human sacrifice. After all, it was either Jesus-the-god who died on the cross, or Jesus-the-human. Jews believe that God cannot die, and so all that Christians are left with in the death of Jesus on the cross, is a human sacrifice. However, in Deuteronomy 12:30-31, God calls human sacrifice an abomination, and something He hates: "for every abomination to the Eternal, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods." All human beings are sons or daughters, and any sacrifice to God of any human being would be something that God would hate. The Christian idea of the messiah consists of ideas that are UnBiblical.

I'm confused by this.....they believe that there is a Messiah coming...they just don't believe that it is Jesus.. They didn't understand that Jesus came to set up His Spiritual Kingdom...they were trying to make Him King in an earthly way...they didn't understand that God's plan of Salvation was going beyond just them. For this 'exert' to say that God will not accept human sacrifice....shows their lack of understanding that Jesus is God...and also shows how their minds have been covered (veiled). Jesus rose again.. He did not stay dead.. He lives! God died himself and took the sacrifice upon Himself....something no one else could do. Their error lies in the fact that they see Jesus as only a man and not God!..


well..my family is going outside to play (finally some snow)... I'll be back when I have more time!
Blessings, Carla

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Thomas L J Faulkner on January 1, 2010 at 2:48pm

Thank you.

I did some more research since I posted this discussion. I went to a site called Jews for Jesus, and they not only allow Jews to discuss why they believe in Y'shua (Jesus) as the Messiah, but also why they don't. They also had very convincing articles that answered many of my questions. Comparing the arguments, I've decided it's safe to say that Jesus is not only the Messiah, but also Lord. I still have my questions, but, there always seems to be an answer for every answer. It really is unending. But, that's not news to me. I know I have already disobeyed God. He revealed to me that I should turn to His Word whenever I have questions, and He will show me the answer. Still, I have ignored His Word. Instead, I have been looking elsewhere. I am such a horrible procrastinator, and I know He doesn't like that. I can't find favor with Him alone. I need the Mediator.

All along, though, I knew in my heart that the whole fabrication idea was silly. I've researched that subject, too, long before I posted this discussion. Even Albert Einstein was convinced of His existence. I'm just sorry that he never realized His purpose. We truly live in an outstanding age. The Lord has provided more evidence for Himself than ever, and the proof is growing, still. Could that be because we truly are approaching His day, and He wants us to believe before it's too late?

Again, thank you both for helping me in my search.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Carla on January 1, 2010 at 2:59pm

Dear Thomas,

Amen! Praise God! Indeed.. Jesus is Messiah. He is Worthy of all Praise.. Jesus is KING of Kings and LORD of Lords! Continue to seek Him with your whole heart! God has a purpose for each one of us....whatever it is....it will be to Glorify Himself.

Blessings, Carla

• ▶ Reply