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Believe to receive
He also says the double minded man should not expect to receive anything.
Then He heals the son of the man who asked Him to help his unbelief.
He says each is given a measure of faith and faith as small as a mustard seed could move mountains.
And we're told to pray that He will increase our faith.
There's been so often I've had doubt about things turning out any better. I've had the first two often thrown at me. Well here's what I've taken from them and if I'm missing something please show scripture to help me understand.
I researched double minded including the original Greek. And there's another scripture says return ye double minded from your backsliding. Choose who you will worship God or Baal. I concluded double minded is to waffle between belief in God not as to whether He would do a thing or not.
So in pondering one must believe and believe He rewards, I've not had questions as to His existing. There's so much to point to Him AND demonic forces. And where demons exist then that is proof God does also. I also have seen He rewards. Where I've often been hung up is what His will is in my own life and whether I'm truly right with Him. So the doubt has not been whether He CAN do a thing but whether He WILL. This verse bothered me terribly because of how it's often approached that you have to believe you'll get it without ever examining" believe what"? I do believe He is. I do believe He's a rewarder. I've had trouble believing in ME. And that verse doesn't talk about what I think about myself.
As well I've been told I have to have faith or made to feel my faith isn't good enough as if I should do something about it. And I do... exactly as told, I pray He will increase my faith. I can't do anything. So to think I can increase my own faith doesn't sound right to me.
I'm thinking these verses are too often used out of context and often people don't understand what people actually are doubting. I've pondered and studied them and can come to no other conclusion.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Richard L. Broch, Sr. on
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Hi Char,
So the doubt has not been whether He CAN do a thing but whether He WILL.
Yep, I've asked that before......and heard it asked by others before......and probably been on the minds of untold numbers of saints for a couple thousand years.
It's a valid thought .
Sister, I think I can give you some insights into your reasonable posting.........but not at one sitting......this is gonna take a while.
So, let's get started.
James 1:6-8, "But let him ask in faith without any doubting, for the one who doubts is like the surf of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. (7) For let not that man expect that he will receive anything from the Lord, (8) being a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways." (N.A.S.B.).
God does not like doubting at all. It's one of the enemy's favorite tactics - to get folks doubting. Look where it all started, with Adam and Eve......when the serpent told them, "You surely shall not die." That set them doubting God's stern warning.
God is saying in verse 6 that a person who doubts Him.....has no faith. And can we say that believers might have "weak moments" in their faith level sometimes.........under stress......depressed?
"Double-minded" man is someone who is vacillating in opinion or posture. It's from two words, (dis - twice) and (psuche - soul, mind). As the Bible says, "unstable in all his ways".
And Char, I need help finding in the Bible - And we're told to pray that He will increase our faith.
In Luke 17:5, the apostles told Jesus to "increase our faith". That would be like the groom telling the bride, "increase my love for you". Jesus gave them an example of what faith consists of.
In Luke 22:32, Jesus told Peter that He had prayed that his (Peter) faith would not fail..........
Of course faithfulness is one of the nine fruit of the Spirit ( Galatians 5:22).....but we have to allow Him the ground to do His fruit in us.
Oh yeah.....we're just getting started. Thank you, Char.
Grace and Peace.
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Permalink Reply by Seek on
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And Char, I need help finding in the Bible - And we're told to pray that He will increase our faith.
That's what happens working from a cell phone. Anyway there's what you said plus there's...
1 Corinthians 12
New King James Version (NKJV)
12 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant: 2 You know that[a] you were Gentiles, carried away to these dumb idols, however you were led. 3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.
4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit...
And this continues to vs 31 where Paul says But earnestly desire the best gifts.
Since we pray for wisdom and understanding because we would desire these we would naturally pray for the gifts and the gift of faith is just one of them. So it's not an actual quote but a general message that's stuck in mind.
I think under stress and depressed aren't the only times of doubt. Abraham was a great man of God who never wavered in his faith but under the pressure of waiting he succumbed to doubt. I think perhaps he doubted not if God could or if God existed or that God was a rewarder etc. But perhaps he doubted...did I really hear God? Maybe I misunderstood Him? Have I messed up and grieved Him somewhere? Is He displeased with me? With Sarah? Is He wanting me to take the first step? Did He mean I shouldn't try to have other children while I wait?
I think one can ask without doubting but scripture doesn't say we must wait in faith without doubting in order to receive anything. Like Abraham, some wait many years and some see a loved one who believed with all their heart God would heal them just to see them die. So did God tell them He was going to heal them....in this life or was that their interpretation of scripture or their desire they heard rather than God?
It's easy for someone to say you can't doubt when they asked for something and had to wait a month. Other maybe they waited a year, two? It's easy for that person to say to one who's waited years that you can't doubt...thereby discouraging rather than encouraging them in their faith. Maybe someone who waits years has more faith than even they can believe. Sorry would add more but my cell typing finger is tired and I gotta get ready for work.
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Permalink Reply by Amanda on
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Seek,
This verse also indicates faith can have differing proportions:
6 Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith (Romans 12 ESV).
The word proportion is defined at this link http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/proportion
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Permalink Reply by JB on
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Of course faithfulness is one of the nine fruit of the Spirit ( Galatians 5:22).....but we have to allow Him the ground to do His fruit in us.
Richard do you see a difference in "Faith " and "Faithfulness"? A real bible, lol says Galatians 5:22-23 (KJV) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. I don't see "faithfulness" Though if we are walking in the Spirit, we will usually be "Faithful".JB's Opinion.
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Permalink Reply by Tammy on
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My doubts come when I'm not sure if I'm asking for the right things. Am I asking for my wants or my needs? Am I asking for God's will? I don't doubt that He can provide it. I've been reading stuff on this all day so I pray He'll give me more to post later unless He leads someone else to post it.
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Hi Group,
Joe (JB), LOL with you. I used to attend a Bible study group and one mature Christian referred to his King James Bible as
the "Authorized Version"........ anyway - faith/faithfulness.......like in horseshoes, close enough.
Yes Amanda, it seems people can have various levels of faith. The last line in Romans 12:3, " ................as God has allotted to each a measure of faith."(N.A.S.B.).
What do you guys think? The Holy Spirit starts a seeker off with a measure of faith ( kind of like primer on a pump)..........."So Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ" Romans 12:17, (N.A.S.B.).
Then faith should grow in our walk with the Lord. Our prayer life grows along with our level of faith.
Tammy asks some key questions =
asking for the right things?............If in doubt, God will sort it out.
asking for my wants or needs?......As long as what one asks for is not illegal, immoral, unsafe, or anti-Scriptural.......OK.
asking for God's will?.........We need to check our text book - The Holy Bible, for God's will, way, and word, if in doubt.
Then there's an important factor to consider - God's schedule. If we are praying for something, or somebody, that the Lord has already ear-marked for a purpose and/or timing.......it's up to Him.
And remember, the Bible tells us to pray for those who are not nice to us.
That's all for tonight from your loving brother In Christ.
Grace and Peace.
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Richard, it might be close enough for you, but in reality you still missed the mark. "meaning" and this leads to miss interpretation of the Word of God. By the way... I am not a KJV only, but seek truth through the leading of the Holy Spirit, not by the word of man.
Sometimes our sense of humor can lead us away from the truth, and it appeals to itching ears.
Blessings,
JB
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We're to study the Word as well. While we're to be led by the Holy Spirit, we can also be deceived. I prefer to read several versions and commentaries, as well as look up Greek and Hebrew word translations to get a deeper meaning and see if it lines up with what I'm sensing from it. I did that just this morning. Due to how the NIV that I was reading stated something, I was reading it differently and thinking it didn't mean what it first seemed to say. So I searched other versions and then the original Greek and what I read was not correct. What it first appeared to say was. But we're all growing according to our own understanding so close enough works for each until we all grow into unity.
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Permalink Reply by ScribeD on
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JB, i disagree with you and think you are missing what Richard has said. Not long ago I did an exhaustive study of faith and faithfulness - from God's point of view. That is, to learn how God sees our faith and our faithfulness. My conclusion after weeks of detailed study is that God sees the one as the fruit of the other, that in fact He uses the term faith interchangeably with faithfulness.
In truth, the Bible is very clear that those who have true faith are faithful. They take their belief and put it into action. For instance, there were 11 disciples who had faith and stayed the course with Jesus over the long term and there was one who had no faith so therefore was unfaithful.
Also, consider James' statement that "faith without works is dead". Is he not saying that true faith will manifest into actions of faithfulness? In my own experience, following the Lord through His word for a good while now, I know that my own faithfulness is a manifestation that I truly believe God will do what He has said. If I fail to act on God's promises, it is a demonstration that I don't actually believe, but merely have a theoretical assent to Him, which is not actual faith from God's point of view.
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"I'm thinking these verses are too often used out of context and often people don't understand what people actually are doubting. I've pondered and studied them and can come to no other conclusion."
Seek, I completely agree. I have concluded from years of studying John's Gospel and Letters (epistles) that when he is talking about "belief" and "faith", he is primarily speaking of faith in Jesus and his finished work. In my opinion, his entire Gospel is intended to prove the statement in John 19:30 "Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit." My understanding is that John intends this as the great crescendo, not just of his book, but of all time. So much so that everything he has written until this point, and everything he writes in his other 4 books is intended to hinge on that moment.
In the Greek NT manuscripts, this is a single word: Tetelestai, which was a legal term meaning "the debt is paid in full" and can also mean "it is finished" or "it is completed". Most Bible expositors that I have studied go with the "debt is paid in full" as the intended meaning. Everything John quotes Jesus as saying in the Gospel seems to lead to this meaning. Now, this would be the most arrogant of statements to make... if Jesus were not able to actually prove that He had paid the debt. In John's mind, his resurrection put the final seal of God's approval on that for all time.
Back to what you have said/asked in your previous statements. I'm very wary of preachers who seem to promise unicorns and rainbows for everyone who "has faith". It's not been my experience. What has been my experience is that God walks with us on this journey and He often does give us amazing overcoming power and on occasions he gives us flat out miracles that boggle the mind. But many times he asks us to endure. Many times he asks us to wait.
James 1:12
Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.Notice what James is speaking of in his first chapter: "endurance" and "driven and tossed by the wind" and "scorching" and "humiliation" and "tempting" circumstances that put their beliefs in Jesus to the absolute test. The trial James is referring to is the times of testing and endurance that the first century church went through in Jerusalem [James was the Pastor of the Jerusalem church in the 1st Century]. They were ostracized from the majority community, kicked out of Synagogue, restricted from the Temple, had their lands siezed, their fathers imprisoned, they were flogged, stoned, chased out of the city. Remember Saul of Tarsus and his letters of authority to persecute the followers of Jesus? He was one of the major contributors to the trials James is speaking about.
When we are talking about faith and trials in western nations, we have no idea for the most part of the kinds of tests of faith that these people endured. Few people have been thrown out of their family or community for faith in Jesus. Even Atheists will still invite their Nephew "born again Bob" to Thanksgiving dinner. Today, even in most Jewish homes, they can reluctantly accept Sara the shiksa who married a Gentile and became a Christian. But in Muslim countries, the cost of discipleship is often the same as that of the first century Jew who became a disciple of Jesus. Stoning, scourging, hangings and/or expulsion are incredibly common for anyone who would turn to Jesus in a Muslim country today; it is flat out against the law and punishable by death in many Muslim countries.
I have a Muslim friend who emigrated to the US from Central Asia. I asked him if it was possible for him to consider turning to Jesus. He honestly wanted to understand what Jesus taught. But he told me "become a Christian? No way. Not possible. You don't understand... I would have to leave my entire family, deny my family name, be shunned by everyone I ever loved or ever knew to become a Christian. I would be forever abandoned by my own people." I told him that is actually the cost of Discipleship, according to Jesus. He asks us to accept that fate. My friend turned away with a heavy heart and said "this is too much. I cannot believe in Jesus."
I have another (former) Muslim friend who has been told by his family "If you ever come home to our country again, WE will KILL you OURSELVES because you have shamed us by becoming a Christian."
Put these verses on faith and doubting into the right context and it ALL makes perfect sense.
Now... you want to know if God will give you strength for your current troubles? Yes! Absolutely. What He has done for others He will do for you. Your problems are neither too big nor too small for Him. But, we often have to be willing to accept that He is guiding us to make changes or to accept a season of loss or endurance through trials. It happens. Sometimes He has a reason for us to learn to walk closely with Him by losing things we hold dear or by suffering through trials of pain. I have learned so much by suffering. God has not failed me, but He has asked me to take on some incredible things that I never thought I could endure.
The fact is that it is by coming to the point where ALL that we have left to depend on is God, is exactly when we know that our faith is real, is tangible, is true. Until then, it's just theory. Think like the early church: if you lose everything you have Jesus. He's enough. At some point, God will reward your trust.
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