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Baptism in Fire
Coul anyone explain what exactly is baptism in fire, please?
Thanks and God bless
Thanks and God bless
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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Hey Michelle,
I do not agree with the "Evidence Doctrine." This subject has been dealt with several times here on AAG through various forums, but we can revisit it here if necessary. Tongues is one gift of many and is not the gift. Scripture does not support such a view to qualify it as the gift that gives evidence tot he filling with the Holy Spirit and to imply if one does not speak in tongues they are not filled is incorrect.
Lord Bless,
LT
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Michelle,
The following link relates to the subject of the "Evidence Doctrine" and a rather long discussion that took place there regarding the doctrine.
http://www.allaboutgod.net/forum/topics/does-bible-consistently-show
Lord Bless,
LT
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I do not discount your experience in any way. My statement is only meant to point out that some people speak in tongues when they are filled with the Holy Spirit and others do not. I praise God that He gave you that gift at the time of your filling. For me, from the experiential side, I was filled in March 1992 and did not speak in tongues for about 10 years. I was filled and gifted in other areas prior to speaking in tongues. I believe that the Bible teaches some do and some do not speak in tongues even though they are filled with the Holy Spirit.
You might find it interesting that the Assemblies of God, which is a great group, came out from the denomination I am with back in the early 1900s. Do you know what the cause for the separation was? It was, you guessed it, the evidence doctrine. The debate was never over the gift, just the one particular doctrine.
Lord Bless,
LT
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Permalink Reply by Edwin Muir on
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Do You enjoy this liberty Brother,? and I refer not to the Gift of tongues but the manifestation as we completely surrender our all in adoration and the PERSON of the HOLY *GHOST* takes up residence and the natural is lost in the supernatural.
I have found that the scriptures do clearly show ;
1 Cor 12.7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
1 Cor 14.5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
1 Cor 14.18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
Imagine that a *Father* would tempt His children with favouritism or the inability to EDIFY himself (1 Cor 14. 4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself);or express at times.
Oh no! *HIS* Name is the WORD and *His* gift to commune with or without understanding,(11 Cor 13.14) in *The Spirit* LET NONE DECRY.
FINALLY,note that the anti argument would rob instead add in the face of Pauls testimony once again;1 Cor 14.18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
ANOTHER HINT OF THIS DEVILISH UNDERMINING OPERATION IS;
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.
And the WORD does not say to the HOLY *GHOST*,but BY,or with the enabling of.
Rather it states IN or BY or THROUGH The *SPIRIT*.
And this isn`t just head knowledge this is LIFE.
New Age and unbelief through biased teachers has crept in to rob the church of intimacy and power.and get us out of Devine order.
1 Jn 1.3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.NOT FELLOWSHIP WITH THE *SPIRIT* BUT BY THE *SPIRIT*!
AMEN GRACIOUS WORTHY *LORD*.
NOT BY MIGHT NOR BY POWER BUT BY MY *SPIRIT* SAYS THE *LORD*.
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Virginia,
Some good information has been pointed out already, but I would like to add a little to it. There are numerous reasons people come up with different understandings regarding particular passages. Here is a couple. Some people approach Scripture with a preconceived idea as to what God is like and how He would act and thus the will interpret Scripture based on their understanding. They will read into (eisegesis) the text their meaning instead of seeking to extract (exegesis) from Scripture what God intended. You also have liberal (the Bible is God’s Word, but necessarily inspired) view versus fundamental (The Bible is wholly inspired by God and the exact words he intended through human writers) view. You have literal (Understanding the Scripture as simply stated whenever possible) versus allegoric (Seeking to apply a deeper meaning behind almost every teaching or account in Scripture). These are just a few variants that lead to differences.
When seeking to interpret Scripture there are several principles or processes one must undertake in order to seek to extract the true meaning. We must examine key words, immediate context, context in relation to the immediately previous and next immediate passage, context within the book it is found, harmony with Scripture (a single verse that seems to say something the contradicts other sound doctrine cannot say what we assume it is saying as God’s Word does not contradict itself), you also need to identify the audience or intended hearer of the message, and cultural issues must be examined. These are the basics, though it can be broken down a little further.
Regarding the text in question, Matthew 3:11 let’s put some of these principles to the test.
Key Words: Fire and Baptism
Immediate context:
Previous Passage:
Next Passage:
Context within the book:
Audience:
Cultural issues:
Key Word: Fire
In Scripture fire is used for judgment, purifying, as part of the sacrificial system, relates to hell and the Lake of Fire and identifies the presence of God to name a few. Thus, the word fire alone does not give us a clear picture. Looking in the Gospel of Matthew we see the word fire used in eleven verses. Let’s exclude Matthew 3:11 since it is our text in question. What can we learn from Matthew’s use of the word? In the ten other occurrences we see that the word fire is used in relation to hell, judgment and destruction. The lack of linking the word fire to a believer in any of the verses is significant. Expanding the word search to the N.T. we find 67 verses. Fire is referred to as a natural fire in 7 verses and in a positive context in another 9. This leaves 51 verses that use fire as judgment, hell or destruction.
Key Word: Baptism and is variations
In every instance the word is used in relation to the baptism of the believer in water or by the Holy Spirit. Baptism is always used in a positive sense.
Immediate context:
The use of the word fire immediately before (v.10) and immediately after (v.12) refer to judgment.
Previous passage: This does not lend much value in the case.
Next passage: Jesus is led out into the dessert where He is confronted by the devil. This type of testing is viewed as being tested under fire, or refined by fire. Mark 9:49 states that everyone will be salted with fire and 1 Peter 1:7 teaches that we are refined by fire and our trials and tribulations are the cause of this refining.
Context within the Book: The key words revealed this for us.
Audience: Mixed group of Jews. Those coming to be baptized by water for repentance and those who are there challenging him and his teaching.
Cultural issues: None that I see that carry enough importance to effect the interpretation.
Putting it together and drawing a conclusion:
Is it speaking of baptism for the believer and judgment for the unbeliever or is it speaking of baptism by water and by fire? Let’s look at both.
1) Baptism for the believer and judgment for the unbeliever:
The key words align with this concept. Baptism is always mentioned in connection with the believer. The word fire within the immediate context and within the book of Matthew clearly teaches judgment. Expanding to the whole of the N.T. the majority of the uses of the word align with judgment, but one cannot deny there are exceptions, but this is outweighed by the immediate context and usage within the Book of Matthew. The previous passage does nothing to support this view. The next passage refers to the testing of Jesus by the devil and could qualify as testing under fire. This next passage gives an alternative possibility if weighed by itself. Recognizing the audience being split between seekers and detractors enables us to see a dual statement can take place here. Judgment is coming on the world and Jesus does baptize with the Holy Spirit.
2) Baptism by water and fire:
The key words give a little support when stepping outside of Matthew and looking at the rest of the N.T. Supporting verses are Mk. 9:49 and 1 Pe. 1:7. The immediate context weighs strongly against this view as well as does the context found within the gospel of Matthew. The overall audience is not important here as long as there are seekers present. The greatest support for this view is found in the next passage where Jesus is tempted by the devil.
Finalizing the findings:
The information that supports view 2 is just not strong enough to outweigh and turn the compelling evidence for the first view. Is there room for doubt? I would not say doubt, but caution. We can sometimes get too dogmatic and miss the greater point of Scripture. The reality is that all believers must be baptized with the Holy Spirit. All believers will be tested as with fire through many trials and temptations. The world will be judged with fire. What we do not find here is that the fire is referring to some extra, different or strange baptism.
Lord Bless,
LT
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Permalink Reply by Carla on
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Dear Virginia,
There have been many varying views regarding this discussion.. I am learning so much... The potential for such varying views is why I asked the context of your question the other day. To be honest, I don't even know why I asked that question because I had never really given it any thought in the context that David V explained it. I felt led to ask the question of context.
I brought this question to my bible study this morning...and the answer I received was the same explanation that David Velasquez gave here. Certainly not to say this is right....But I wanted to look into it more myself 'cause this was also new to me.
Well..... As we dive deeply into scripture there is more and more to learn...Isn't God great the way He challenges us and stretches us?!?
So...to ask my question again... In what context are you asking this question? How did the topic come up for you?
Thanks sis.. blessings, Carla
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Permalink Reply by Virginia on
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Thank you all for your answers and personal experiences.
Carla, the first time I came across this term was in the Pentecostal church I used to attend and I got baptised (in water). Well one of the church assistants told us that baltism in water was only d begining, we still had to be baptised in the Holly Spirit and then in Fire. She was meant to explain every thing but she failed to do it for that reason I decided to find out myself. Sometimes I need things to be explained to me as if I was a five year old.
LT thank you for clarifying that speaking on tongues isn't d only gift of the Holly Spirit. I don't speak in tongues but I still
the Holly Spirit is in me due to the huge positive changes I've seen in myself, am I right?
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By d way is it possible for me to have recieved d Holly Spirit other than with someone placing their hands on me? Actually, at home, after praying? Is it normal to experience physical sensations?
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Scripture demonstrates that people are filled with the Holy Spirit in various ways. So to you first question, yes.
Regarding physical sensation I have heard people describe their filling in many different ways, but all acknowledge a spiritual awareness and assurance.
Hope that helps.
Lord Bless,
LT
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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1 Corinthians 12:13 (New King James Version)
13 for by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body (this means Everyone Born again)
—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into[a] one Spirit.
You see Sister Virginia - we are all baptized into one body.
I speak in tongues myself, but I follow the guidelines established in the New Testament by Paul in Corinthians. Our God is a God of order.
I do not believe tongues to be the only sing that a person has been baptized into the body by the Spirit though. Tongues is but one more gift and the least of them, matter of fact, since it edifies the individual primarily. Paul says to desire the gifts that edify the body more.
When the gift of Speaking in an unknown tongue is accompanied with interpretation of it, then tongues is elevated to the importance of the other gifts that bless the body.
1 Corinthians 14
Prophecy and Tongues
1 Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. 2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries. 3 But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men. 4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for[a] he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.
1 Corinthians 12
Spiritual Gifts: Unity in Diversity
1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant: 2 You know that[a] you were Gentiles, carried away to these dumb idols, however you were led. 3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.
4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same[b] Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.
Blessings :) dave
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Permalink Reply by Don Jensen on
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What is the ‘baptism with the Holy Ghost and with fire’ from the biblical perspective?
Many will say that there is only one reference to this topic coming from the words of John the Baptist as found in Matthew 3:11:
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
John was baptizing those who came to him when he saw that there were Pharisees and Sadducees among the crowd. He used the opportunity to presage the coming of the Messiah who would offer a second baptism; that of the Holy Ghost and fire.
The subsequent baptism of Christ had these two components. He was baptized with water by John, followed by the spirit of God descending upon Him. Could this be considered a baptism of the spirit? I would suggest this is the case.
In the first chapter of Acts, we are given the last words of the resurrected Christ to the twelve:
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
This, I would suggest, is consistent with the message found in Matthew 3, that there are two baptisms – baptism of water unto repentance and baptism of spirit.
Shortly after the ascension of Christ, the twelve were gathered together on the day of Pentecost with this result:
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
So here we have these men being ‘filled with the Holy Ghost’ and having what appeared to be ‘fire’ standing upon them in literal fulfillment of the words of the Messiah and John the Baptist. They were baptized with the Holy Ghost and with fire.
In the tenth chapter of Acts, we read of Cornelius, a gentile whose prayers and alms were noted by God. He was to become the first non-Jew to be brought into the kingdom.
44 ¶ While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
From verse 47 one can determine that Cornelius and his household received the same baptism that Peter and his associates received. I find it interesting that the sequence was reversed in the case of Cornelius, he having received the baptism of the Holy Ghost before the baptism of water unto repentance.
Further in the eleventh chapter of Acts, we read of Peter’s report of the incident to the brethren in Jerusalem:
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
Peter relates that Cornelius experienced the same type of event as the apostles did on the day of Pentecost. He then links it also to the statement of John the Baptist uttered in Matthew. I would suggest that these three events are consistent – that the baptism with the Holy Ghost and with fire occurred in each case. As such, I would consider the baptism of fire a component in this second baptism.
Where else does one find reference to water and spirit? Of course, John 3 gives us the same message:
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
This dual birth has the same components as the baptism described earlier. In going back to the Greek, one can find that the ‘see’ found in verse 3 can be suggestive of perceiving or having knowledge of the kingdom of God. This is certainly different from the act of ‘entering’ the kingdom of God described in verse 5.
This earth has received its baptism of water. It will yet receive its baptism of fire. While the wicked will be consumed by that fire, the earth itself will be sanctified and purged of all dross and iniquity. I would suggest the same is true for us as individuals. The baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost will sanctify us and purge us of all iniquity.
I would suggest that the second baptism, described by John the Baptist, promised by the Savior, and experienced by the early church, is a glorious and life changing experience. It removes the burden of sin and guilt and leaves the person with a joy that is beyond description. It is truly the entry point into the kingdom of God.
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Luke 24:49 (New King James Version)
49 Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem[a] until you are endued with power from on high.”
Great to have you among us seeking and discussing the truth that sets us free bro Don.
The disciples were saved through their faith in Jesus Christ, like everyone else, but before the new convenent was established and the ascension of our Lord, the Holy Spirit would not reside in a person permanently.
The Holy Spirit would come and accomplished a work through and individual and then leave. Jesus had not ascended into heaven yet, so the promise of the indwelling of the H.S. was a much anticipated promise. hence the need for their first experiance of the Spirit redising in them permanentaly. The had been given a temporary portion, we see it in:
1 Corinthians 12:13 (New King James Version)
13 for by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body (this means Everyone Born again)
—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into[a] one Spirit.
Every born again believer is baptized by the Spirit into the body and then comes the water baptisim, either simultaneously or on a future time. There are two baptism, one by the Spirit and one by the water, but not two baptisms of the Spirit and the water one. Which will make it a total of 3 baptism.
Is that what you are saying as well when you say: BOQ "I would suggest that the second baptism, described by John the Baptist" EOQ
Since Jesus ascended and is seating on the right hand of God and the new convenent has been established and the fact that we are temples of the Holy Spirit, no second baptism is needed. What we do see thought out Acts and it’s a reality in our lives is the subsequent infillings/refreshments of the Spirit in our lives.
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