Just a question

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Ron Payne on March 1, 2008 at 1:45am

When I stand before a judge or magistrate and I say: "I am sorry and I will never defraud anyone out of $50,000 again. I have changed and I am now a good person. Please forgive me and let me go free."
The magistrate will tell me that being a good person and being sorry is not good enough, I have defrauded (sinned) against another and must give back the $50,000 and pay a $10,000 fine, or go to jail. for an indeterminate time. This would be a correct and Fair Judgement.

Most people outside of the Christian faith think that by saying "Sorry" it is sufficient. It is not. There is a debt and it must be paid in full

Imagine if the judge said to the complainant. "He is really sorry and I know without any doubt, that he will never do that again, "therefore I have let him go free." There would be an uproar in court and the complainant would be insisting on a fair ruling. "I want him to pay back the money he stole and pay the fine. If he does not then he must go to Jail. This is Law."

So we see that in a perfect judgement, the Judge would be fair and protective to the complainant by condemning the thief and insisting that sorry is just not good enough.

God's judgment on the whole world (including Hindu's, Muslims, Christians, Jews - Everyone) is this:
"The soul that sins he shall die" God looks on sin with such abhorrence and hate coupled with disgust, that He has already passed Judgment on all Sinners. Including you and me.

Now we know that the thief could never pay back the $50,000 plus the fine, and even if he is sorry, the debt still HAS TO BE MET. What then if the Judge is a merciful judge and also an extremely good judge of character etc. What if this judge got off his chair and goes down to the Court treasurer and pays the debt and the fine himself on behalf of the thief? The debt and fine would have been paid in full and therefore the sentence cancelled. If the thief is a sincere man he would love the Judge for what he had done and would always thank him for saving him. If he was insincere and was not serious in his apologies. He would simply continue his life of sin and eventually go to Jail as he deserved.

God in His wisdom knew that we could NEVER pay for the sins we commit throughout our lives and He is also aware of His command that "The soul that sins, will surely die." The court in Heaven also has to have it's requirements met. Being sorry is not good enough. Someone must Pay. If Not, then God would be going back on his own judgment. :"The soul that sins, shall die"
Like that Merciful Judge God's Son Jesus got off His throne and said: "I will pay the debt in full and all who truly repent, will be saved through me."
Jesus then came down to this earth took on the form of a man and as a representative of mankind
He paid for our sins in full on the Cross.
Those who accept this and allow God to change their lives, the debt will have been paid in full and they will be accepted as people for whom their debt has been paid in full.

One has to consider carefully and truthfully: "How will my debts to God and all the people I have sinned against and lied to, how are they going to be paid. I cannot pay for them, I am so full of sin myself. How can a bankrupt person pay his debts? He may not even know where some of the people he sinned against are. By being sorry and promising to be good in future.. That's not good enough.
The world that is Bankrupt in their sins are looking to their own goodness, their own plans are placing themselves above God and telling Him, your way is not good enough. "I'll Do It My Way."

God loved the world that He gave his only Son so that everyone who believes in him will not die but will have eternal life.
God sent his Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but to save the world.
Those who believe in him won't be condemned. But those who don't believe are already condemned because they don't believe in God's only Son. John 3:16-18


Your

Permalink Reply by maha on March 3, 2008 at 10:39am

Our laws is based on clear evidence. If someone made a crime and their is an evidance then he is going to be punished by a judge for that. Her, Judge can't let him go because he said sorry!! sure he won't even the one who committed the crime is truly sorry. But, live is unjust even if didn't do anything and there is an evidance that says the opposite! he is still a criminal in the human laws. We judge what we can see
God judge our doings and intentions too. even if that innocent person at jail is going to get his right back whether in this life or in the after life...
Also, sorry as word is not enough, "penitence" requires the following as God stated:
1. be sorry,
2. and in your intention not to get back to it
2. do good deed as you can to erase the bad ones and for God to forgive you
you still will be punished by our judges and laws, or maybe not!, and this going to clean you too.
It's not just being sorry that will get you salvation

If Jesus Christ died for us to got salvation, then why would be bother ourself to even try to do goodness, I'm not saying doing bad things since sorry is not enough, but only not doing goodness. Is this enough!

Permalink Reply by Phabs on February 25, 2008 at 9:24pm

Hi Only

I'm only going to reply to this:

"You say that God say the only way for us to be forgiven is by a perfect one dying in our place! What does that mean? That God has no other solutions? How is this possible? I mean He is God, I don’t know about this but I’m not convinced"



Ok so let's say you are God, (no it's not blasphemy to just suppose for a moment, so keep the stones away ;-) ok!)


You are thrice holy, so you do not/cannot in your nature "associate" (for lack of a better term) with sinners

Now not only are you holy, you are also just and sins incur your wrath, and we know the wages of sin is death, (that is spiritual death or eternal separation from God and physical death in the flesh.)

so now not only are you a holy God and you are just, but you are also loving and burn with the desire to fellowship with the very beings that are a sore to you because you are an holy, a thrice holy God.

What are your options?

Now remember, because you are just, the wages of sins have to be paid. And if you were to make the very people that have this debt against you pay up, it would lead to eternal damnation for them, forever separated from you, which is not what you, you want the opposite; for them to forever be with you. Because you are holy you cannot accept them as they are! Because you are just, their sins have to be punished! And because you are love you do not want to crush them, you want to save them?

What are your options then?

Permalink Reply by Pastor Bob B on February 26, 2008 at 6:04am

I would like to respond to you Phabs, in the ancient times when a law was made by a king it was set in stone. In the book of Ester we see the king making a law that all Hebrews were to be put to death on a certain day not knowing his own wife was a Hebrew. So He could not reverse the Law a made a new law that the Hebews could fight back. Paul in the new testiment said this The law of life in Christ Jesus has set us free from the law of sin and death. He said the law was a school master showing us our sin. If we did not have the law we would not know right from wrong. It was not removed but a greater law came into affect which was sealed with the blood of Jesus that has given us a way to be reunited with God. Some would say it seems unfair that there is just one way, but at least there is one way and it is through faith in the work of Jesus Christ. Gods kindness and love leads us to repent and turn from our sin. Tis is a great so express this.

Permalink Reply by Phabs on February 26, 2008 at 9:38pm

Hi Bob
I think I agree with you, my question to Only was to see how he would or what other possible way could there be for GOD to save us.

Yes I would agree that Christ fulfilled the requirements of the old law and has given us a new law to abide by...

In Christ

Permalink Reply by Pastor Bob B on February 27, 2008 at 6:31am

The word tells us that wide is the way to distruction and narrow is the way to slavation. So in regards to salvation we could say God is very narrow minded. But John 3:16-17 tell us that Gods love for humanity provided a way for mankind to be saved. I heard someone say once that at least God provided a way. Jesus bridged the gap for us. There is only one cure for example polio, or smallpox. But what if evrybody started argueing there must be another cure. They can argue all they want but until they reieve the only cure they will die. I hope this helps. Have you recieved the cure for sin and been born again? If not I or someone else would be glad to help you do this. God bless

Permalink Reply by Phabs on February 27, 2008 at 4:26pm

The funny or sad things is that you are not the first Christian who has tried to cure me :-( :-) I'm not sure how to feel about that. Thanks Bob, I'm already at peace with God though, i'm one of you ;-)

The point of the question was to see how the poster, Only, would propose God saves the elects without conflicting/compromising His holiness, His justice, or His love.

I was not asking because I thought that there could be another way, I'm just really curious as to what other ways those who take objection to Christ being the sacrificial lamb and the only way would propose...

In Christ

Permalink Reply by Pastor Bob B on February 27, 2008 at 5:23pm

I am sorry I misunderstood you and I just wanted to make sure you had the cure.
It is all good and out of love that I want to be helpful if you or anyone were searching. I guess I do not understand your question other than most religions outside of Christianity say that they have ways to God, but we say the way is through Jesus Christ and nothing else, not works, not through rituals, or belonging to a sect., etc. Hope to talk some more soon God bless

Permalink Reply by maha on February 28, 2008 at 5:20am

Hello Phabs,
Almighty God has all options, He always has the right to make whatever He thinks of, even if this is to forgive us all or to do the opposite. So He doesn’t need to make a scarify! You said what other possible way for him to save us! He just told us to not asking for His forgiveness, to be sorry for our sins that we commit, not to do it again and do good deeds that erase the bad ones, as simple as that.
When God sent messengers and prophets, peace be upon them all, He tried to give us other chances and as you say to fulfill our laws, and to declare that He, almighty God, is your and our God
Another question: while looking around the fourms, all prayers were directed to Jesus Christ pbuh not to God. Don't you all pray to God directly? Or do you think that either way work?

God Bless You

Permalink Reply by maha on February 28, 2008 at 5:55am

Sorry I said "He just told us to not asking for His forgiveness" I meant "He just told us to ask for His forgiveness"

Permalink Reply by Ron Payne on March 1, 2008 at 12:21am

Good Day
Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that most Imams and Clerics of Islam when declaring a holy jihad [holy war] against the infidels and, that by killing an infidel, (which is a command to all Muslims) they are assured of a place in heaven.
If that's the case, can you give me the definition of an infidel?'
Your Friend - Ron

Permalink Reply by maha on March 1, 2008 at 1:23am

Yes, Jihad assures you a place in heaven as said in Quran. But define Jihad:

In arabic: Jihad is fighting someone or yourself, when you don't want or heat to do. So A student is mujahid when he study, a father is mujahid when he works dailys in a job that he doesn't like to to feed his family, and so on

In Quran, or in the islamic instructions: you are mujahid or doing jihad in so many situations: Prophet Muhammed pbuh aked one of his people when they were going to fight infidels if he has old father or mother, and when he said that he has, our prophet told him to stay with them and be a mujahid by serving them. Doing the pilgrims when it's so difficult is jihad. Defend yourself, your family or your money against theives or anyone attacts you, if you die you are mujahid!
Our holly war, we actually do not call it holly, doesn't mean always to kill infidels. In islam, wars are to defend islamic lands mostly and when there is no other ways to spread the word of God. We, Muslims, believe that what we have is the word of God, and we want to spread that. In the past, we prophet Muhammed, asked emprores and kings to let him spread his message and leave people to decide for themselves, they didn't allow him and then he fought back.

Nowadays, spreading the Word can be done easier and doesn't require fighting or wars! actually I believe it is forbidden now unless to defend. Most terrorist if you watch the news they kill muslims and christians! I won't say they are not muslims, even if i believe so, but maybe becuase someone is misunderstanding of islam, most muslims now don't read Quran and try to understand it, they kill people becuse of politicals issues, becuase of anger and so many other reasons non of them is to spread God's word, but to justify their reasons and to convince themselves that they are doing that for the big cause. Real muslims know that and we fight for that

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