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Calvanism. How do I tell if a Christian church is teaching Calvanism? and should I not attend it? What is the biggest problem with Calvanism?
I have alot of questions and would just like my friends here to inform me more about "Calvanism". I had a few of my friends at church tell me to not try to attend this church or that church because they "push calvanism". Please tell me more about Calvanism? I dont want to learn anything against the Word of God.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by AAG Netguy on
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Bro. James,
I think you are misrepresenting my position, but, you know what, it doesn't matter! The main thing is that we both love the Lord Jesus and are doing our best to serve Him, each in our own way because you are right; we do have liberties and responsibilities. I imagine we agree on about 99% on what's in the Scriptures. Let's not divide on the 1%, okay? As the Bible commands us, let's keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
I respect your opinion and hope you will extend the same to others. You are welcome here and loved!
Grace be with you, brother!
Greg
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Permalink Reply by ScribeD on
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Brother James, I have read Calvin, as well as Wesley and others who opposed his thinking. I would not call myself a Calvinist - partly because I reject the concept of labeling and partly because I do not agree with one and a half major points of Calvinist theology.
I would heartily disagree with you, however in your claim that "According to 'calvinism,' and other "isms," but especially calvinism, we really don't need anything, not even the Bible, because we have or cannot control or do anything that we want to do or not do." Calvin did not teach this. Some who followed him may have taken his framework to mean this (I have met those who did), yet Calvin would disagree with that thinking, I believe.
Scribe
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Permalink Reply by Forgiven_Son_of_Adam on
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Dear Paige,
Just a word of encouragement, if I may... and a bit of unsolicited advice. Don't be afraid of John Calvin. The reason for his renown is that he was a world-class Bible scholar and is considered a late Reformer. I have a definite Calvinistic bent in my belief system. Let me, please, explain.
On the issue of total depravity, I accept that we cannot earn our way to heaven. There is no salvation of one's own soul. But I do believe that some people go searching after God. But regardless of their attempts, they will fail to reach the Lord, no matter how hard they try or how high their level of sincerity. Faith in Christ is the key and that, to me, takes a personal decision, but the saving action is still God's.
My view of unconditional election is that it does indeed exist, however, I do not believe that God would turn away a sincere seeker, should that ever occur. (It never will, since God has perfect knowledge of what will happen -- and I believe what MIGHT HAVE happened/still may happen if a different path was/is taken.) The one problem with unconditional election that I see is that I think it eventually leads to "double election." That is to say that if one is chosen to be saved (elected), then one has been elected to damnation.
So far as a limited atonement, I am a (genetic -- both parents, all four grandparents) Baptist and had I lived in the past I would have been a General Baptist rather than a Particular Baptist since I believe in general redemption. I am fully convinced that Jesus died for the whole of humanity, from Adam and Eve to the very last person who will ever be born. I am fully convinced as well that it was effectual for all humanity, but one must come to Christ to gain its benefits. It is limited only in that certain people will come to Jesus to come into right relationship with God. (By the way, I pick on Baptist a lot, but only because I am one, just like fat people, [American] Southerners, and Republicans.)
Irresistible grace I believe exists and God knows who is going to resist Him. But for a lot of people, that resistance is not a permanent state. Do I believe that some people will be instantly drawn to God's grace and unable to deny Him? Absolutely! But I also know of people who got tired of running from Him and finally "gave in" to God and surrendered to Him. (This is even especially true of Christians who run from God's call to a specific ministry or task. Trust me... I know from experience.)
The preservation of the saints has my unequivocal support. Once He has you, you stay His, period. Saving us and keeping us is His job; following His will is ours.
I have never seen myself as a Calvinist, but I still consider myself Calvinistic and enjoy fellowship with several of my friends who are of that persuasion. And I fully agree with Brother Greg, our coordinator, that our unity in Christ is paramount. We can disagree on minor, nonessential issues. Though I have my problems with certain denominations, I like the motto of a local United Methodist church: "In essentials, unity; in nonessentials, liberty; in all things, love."
Hopefully, I haven't muddied the waters for you nor offended you (or anyone else), but I thought that you might glean something from my insight. I have wrestled with this for a long while and this was my solution. Read your Bible, pray, and never, never, stop asking the questions. Seek after Him and His truth. Run after Him. Knock, and He will answer!
Your friend,
Thomas
A Forgiven Son of Adam
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Permalink Reply by Ron Payne on
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Whoa There! This is a fruitless discussion for Theologians and not Christians.
Is it not amazing how all of us saved by Grace by the foreknowledge of God can get all worked up over Calvinism (in some cases Hyper Calvinism) and Arminianism.
Imagine if you will, an Arminian standing on the side of a deep river and a Calvanist on the other.
Both beliefs with all their doctrines, run from the river banks down into the depths of the river. Somewhere there in the depths of the river bed, lies the truth of both sides touching each other.
The Arminian and Calvinistic believers can get so caught up with their own pet theories that they themselves are found fighting over it. Both can be very sincere, yet sadly, both can be sincerely wrong.
Who but God knows where these theories meet and come into agreement with each other?
We as Christians should spend our energies on improving our relationship with the Author and Finisher of our faith.
As Calvinists or Arminians, our theories may be right or wrong and will never save us. BUT our relationship with the Son of God who paid the uiltimate price for our Salvation, will. God help and Bless us all.
Your brother in Christ - Ron
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Brother Ron,
What may be fruitless to you may be a relief to some others.
We are told to find the answers and seek the counsel of other Christians. These theories are an attempt to understand the concepts of the Bible. And, as Christians, theology IS our job; it is part-and-parcel of "improving our relationship with the Author and Finisher of our faith." May I gently remind you of the following: We are to love Him with our minds as well, and "theology" comes from "theos" (god, which we have Christianized to "God") and "ologia" (the study of).
In Christ,
Thomas
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Yes Thomas! The Bible even goes further to say: “Search the Scriptures ; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.” (John 5:39)
Plus, all of us can quote: Acts 17:11 “These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so”.
But while we are here to learn from each other, there are also warnings: “Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.”(1Ti 1:4 )
But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness. (1Ti 4:7)
Because none of us can say with full assurance, “I hold the truth” we have to be aware of The platform on which we say it. That is why, in my letter, I started with “This is a fruitless discussion for Theologians and not Christians.”
First reason. There are hundreds of Christians watching, who have their own version of the subject and we will find each one of us, doing exactly what we were warned about “Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying.”
Second reason. In this arena there are some “Babes in Christ” who reading what is being said, will become more confused than all of us. – Perhaps this is why there is so much divergence on this subject, in that we ourselves, may have fallen prey to “old wives fables” when we, were still babes?
Until we are thoroughly convinced, that what we are saying is the very truth of God, let us hold our tongues and “exercise ourselves rather unto godliness.”
Because of the two reasons given above, I had hoped this discussion would have been left “For the Boardroom.” While we rather lift others up and point each other to the Cross.
Your brother in Christ.
Ron
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Brother Ron,
This is not just something that was pulled up in a distant ivory tower for the sake of a theoretical discussion. A sister here asked for help and each, who felt called to give, gave what they had. Like it or not, the Christian life is filled with two things: theology and hermeneutics. This is, as the saying goes, where the rubber meets the road. Grappling with these issues is not just "for the boardroom only," it is what one encounters while trying to live for Christ. A "boardroom" mentality also encourages a feeling of "you're not one of us yet" among the babes. Besides, how do we learn? We ask questions.
And the vast majority of those who have commented never said that the Calvinists or the Arminians were/are not Christians. There were "no fables or endless genealogies" presented as facts. We were asked, by a member of our own company, about what we are currently discussing. And we, in fact, insisted on the importance of Christian unity and did point people to the Cross, as I recall.
This debate, and others like it, is part of the Christian life. Do you not remember the Jerusalem Council? We will have disagreements over minor issues. These issues need to be discussed among the brethren (and the sistren). We cannot "just hold our tongues" when we are asked such questions. This, too, is for education and edification. We are doing our best with what we have. Remember, the bad servant was the one who hid his single talent. Such is the case here. If we are asked for guidance, we should at least try to help the one who is asking.
Your Brother,
Thomas
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Pastor Art,
I would love to hear you speak in person! Your delivery and style here are fantastic. They must be even better "live." Your knowledge of history is quite impressive as well. Now, I may not always agree with you, but I would always be fed!
Your Brother,
Thomas
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Permalink Reply by Phabs on
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Pastor Art
I'm a little upset at your post I think a lot of it is uncalled for, If you want to refute Calvinism, it's best to do it with the word of God, not by those who misuse it. We cannot judge a belief system by its abuses.
John Calvin was not a perfect man, I don't think neither he nor those who agree in theology with him ever made such a claim. In my opinion, he was a murderer (see servetus), but as far as TULIP he indeed got it right.
John 3:16 is the tip of the iceberg, not only does it not say the world shall not perish but have eternal life. It also does not say how one comes into believing. It's God who brings one to believe. John 3:16 is a double-edged sword, for those who will believe it is a cause of rejoicing but for those who will not believe it is condemnation
Now
Acts 13:48
When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.
It’s God who brings a person into belief.
Also "The WORLD" does not always refer to the whole world and all who inhabits
Staying in the book of John, Chapter 15 uses the word world to refer to, a specific group (unbelievers)
If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first.
Now did every single person in the world hate Christ, every last person.
read 2:Cor 5: 16-21 you can see the use of "world" in verse 19 refers to believers specifically. Surround by the context of the passage it can only refer to those who are in Christ.
John 17 the very word of Christ when He prayed for the disciples before making atonement
"9I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours"
Calvinists do not believe that one is elected because God respects him/her, election is by His counsel for His sovereign purpose. Unconditional election partly deals with that.
As far the Billy Graham comment, if any Calvinist so told you, then he/she is wrong. That is not what the bible teaches, so it is not what Calvinism teaches, an ill-informed Cal does not represent the whole. The parable of the Sower is what illustrates that actually, the parable does not say that one can lose salvation, but that it is our job to sow seeds everywhere without judgment as to the state or condition of the field, it's God who makes the seed grow. The Parable of the Sower does not say one can lose salvation.
There is such a thing as unbiblical Calvinism, in my opinion. Hyper-Calvinism is unbiblical; they are our Christian brothers and sister who are extreme in their beliefs. I don't want to misrepresent them, but Hyper-Calvinism and Calvinism are different school of thoughts.
Whatever your beliefs about these things may be please remember there's 500 some years (that we know of , maybe even more) years of discussions and debates with faithful Christians on both sides, please don’t cast a shadow on them with the evil deeds of men with evil intents.
BTW many Calvinists are Calvinist because they are first and foremost bible believing Christians.
In Christ with love
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Phabs surprises me.... Phabs one thing certain is that you have gone through a lot of trouble and personal study in an attempt to place your point of view. Many of your points need to be digested and reveal that you have put a lot of thought into it. Well done!
But now, having once again read all the replies, with all the differing opinions and beliefs, to confirm what I said earlier, I can only come to the conclusion that the subject is simply creating more confusion.
To continue in this vein, can lead to a road no one intended to take. - While I have not harboured any "luggage" that was brought to this platform or take umbrage or offense - I'm too long in the tooth and old in the faith for that - But I shall be a silent observer and watch with interest, what will really be accomplished at the end. I can stand the heat in any kitchen, but as a wise accomplished fireman, will rather retire before there is too much water damage. - Ron
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Permalink Reply by Paige Robertson on
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Hi Phabs!
Wow! U r very knowledgable! I appreciate all your info! My goodness, girl!
u got it goin on!
praise God!!!!!!! and praise our God for all the wonderful people who have respondedto my concern! I can tell that this is a real issue that alot of people have. The views on this are soo different and yet soo close.
i end up soo full at the end of these comments that I feel as if I am going to explode!
I have a question now, r u a calvinist then or not? I guess Im confused. Let me know...
Thanks!
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